00:00:41 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:01:10 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:35 -!- Pb [n=Pb@75.131.206.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:07:51 -!- nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:09:08 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-122-148.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:20:28 *_3b* wonders how well multimethod dispatch could be implemented in terms of avm2's try/catch/throw stuff 00:24:41 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@rs-69-169-136-43-0003.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:25:01 <_3b> though i guess the lack of multiple inheritance would make it hard to get CL semantics that way 00:28:44 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 00:29:15 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 00:34:08 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:34:26 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 00:36:57 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:42:30 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 00:42:34 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 00:43:56 grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:08 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.217.241] has joined #lisp 00:48:28 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.217.241] has left #lisp 00:53:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:31 Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has joined #lisp 01:01:53 okay. What the hell: 01:01:57 (> 1 (length nil)) => T 01:02:00 what?! 01:02:31 nil is an empty list, the length of an empty list is 0, 1 is bigger than zero 01:03:21 ..oh. I always get confused with the prefix-based >/< 01:03:23 thanks >_> 01:03:33 np 01:03:38 with this I take my leave 01:03:39 salut 01:03:39 -!- ausente [n=id@201-1-114-117.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["EasyScript: [www.EasyScript.com.br]"] 01:03:42 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["zzZZzz"] 01:04:53 it's easy to remember: the left argument has such relation with the right argument 01:05:46 yeah, it makes sense, but I always seem to slip up. That's one thing that I find a bit harder to deal with by using prefixes. I'll get used to it when I use it more, I figure :P 01:05:53 don't really do a lot of number stuff >_> 01:06:50 i usually draw in my mind ">" between every argument 01:07:36 Hello. Earlier in the evening I was asking about a way to sort the two sub lists in (("." 0 1 1 1 4 0 4) ("." 1 2 1 1 4 0 4)) based on the last field. In this case, it is 4 for both of the sub-lists but if the values are different, I want them to be sorted accordingly. 01:07:38 i generally order things so i can use < or <= and ignore > 01:08:04 I was trying to use (sort (list) #'< :key last-element) where last-element is a function that gives me the last value field for a sub-list, but it's giving me wrong no. of arg. error. 01:09:01 Dumb question time: how do I use defvar to store a func, and how do I call it? 01:09:08 -!- H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0D6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:09:16 I tried just (defvar *foo* (lambda ...)) (*foo* ...), but no dice. 01:09:25 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB99CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:09:34 (progn (defvar *foo* #'func) (funcall *foo* 10)) 01:09:37 rlpowell: funcall 01:09:44 Cool, tahnks. 01:09:59 Is #' == funcall ? 01:10:04 no 01:10:21 it is #'... == (function ..) 01:10:23 no. #' quotes a function, you could say. In a way >_> 01:10:25 Aaaaah. 01:10:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:29 Thank you. 01:10:33 sykopomp: how so? 01:11:02 that's how I thought of it, at least. In the sense of you don't immediately evaluate the symbol, but it's identified as a function. 01:11:04 (sort (list) #'< :key #'last-element) ---- corrected the #' for last-element 01:11:07 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 01:11:50 just like you can quote any other symbol, but evaluate it later 01:12:33 sykopomp: that's because function is a special operator and doesn't evaluate its arguments 01:12:47 kinda like quote! 01:12:49 :P 01:13:02 kinda like many other special operators 01:13:17 yeah 01:14:13 ... 01:15:25 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [] 01:16:05 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:13 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:22:36 is it that unusual to sort this kind of list within lists 01:22:38 Aargh. I can't seem to find the magic that makes common-lisp.net just discard all emails to my mailing lists if they're not subscribed. 01:24:16 ttessier [n=chatzill@d121-146-132.home3.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:48 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:26:04 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 01:26:11 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:04 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:40 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:33 Ahmuck [n=supybot@24.225.22.95] has joined #lisp 01:32:37 -!- Ahmuck [n=supybot@24.225.22.95] has left #lisp 01:32:46 <_deepfire> ok, cl-io-elf can now handle 32bit mipsel, x86 and x86-64 01:33:15 -!- BrianRice-mb_ is now known as BrianRice-mb 01:34:28 <_deepfire> the name is a bit misleading, as it only does parsing, not generation 01:35:15 what do you use it for? 01:35:49 <_deepfire> embedded stuff, mostly 01:36:09 So I'm comparing how Clojure does STM with CL-STM. They seem equivalent. You declare things you want to transact over specially and use special setters. I feel like I'm missing the big deal, and hoping #lisp will hit me with that clue bat it swings so well. 01:36:57 some people seem to feel that if you build a feature into the system and bash your users over the head with it, they're somehow better off than if they just decided to do it themselves 01:37:00 <_deepfire> hefner, mainly "give me all executable sections" or "give me the section called .mdebug, so I can parse it further" 01:37:55 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 01:38:02 l_a_m_ [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 01:38:18 _deepfire embedded stuff ? 01:38:51 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:39:33 <_deepfire> xristos, no, no lisp running embedded :-) 01:39:45 <_deepfire> I just build my toolchain in it 01:41:04 what does it do ? ;p 01:43:18 <_deepfire> well, so far I have a fairly complete JTAG driver, assembler/disassembler/basic-block-decoder 01:43:58 <_deepfire> in summary, the thing can load, execute and help me debug the linux kernel on our hardware 01:44:04 ok 01:44:22 _deepfire: nice. 01:45:20 <_deepfire> I wish I can rival our inhouse development environment for our chips in terms of user-friendliness, some day 01:45:44 <_deepfire> its win32, out-of-control-complexity and bug-ridden 01:45:50 <_deepfire> win32-only 01:45:54 _deepfire: So you have, like, a CL implementation of openocd? 01:46:24 <_deepfire> no idea what openocd is 01:46:53 openocd is the software that lets me talk to the JTAG interface on the embedded system I'm currently bashing my skull against every day of my life 01:47:20 <_deepfire> aha, interesting 01:47:46 openocd talks to the usb connection to the JTAG device, and the network. I can connect to openocd over the network with, for example, gdb. 01:48:05 load images, poke around, blah blah 01:48:41 <_deepfire> no, no gdb/network interface in my thing 01:49:02 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:18 so just JTAG stuff from within the lisp image? That's kinda neat. 01:49:23 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:01 <_deepfire> yeah, saves my brain cells from burning out before time.. 01:50:27 <_deepfire> our jtag is parport only at this time, though 01:50:51 you should see whether openocd supports your jtag hw. It has a long list. 01:50:59 might save you more brain cells 01:51:48 ths_ [n=ths@HSI-KBW-091-089-185-014.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:52:06 -!- ths [n=ths@HSI-KBW-091-089-185-014.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:52:24 <_deepfire> our hardware is unique, so.. 01:54:41 your jtag interface is home grown? That's kinda crazy! 01:56:23 <_deepfire> no, the interface itself is of course IEEE 1149.1 01:59:28 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 02:03:58 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-32eddb3ed9e988a8] has joined #lisp 02:08:38 `Aszarsha [n=Miranda@dsl-67-212-29-9.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:34 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:11:22 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:48 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:06 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:16:18 -!- `Aszarsha [n=Miranda@dsl-67-212-29-9.acanac.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:04 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Success] 02:26:10 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:15 -!- Aszarsha [n=Miranda@dsl-67-204-19-122.acanac.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:46 <_deepfire> jfm3, thanks for the pointer, openocd looks very interesting 02:27:31 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:41 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:10 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 02:28:29 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:29:59 puddingpimp [n=puddingp@gateway.quickcircuit.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:32:09 which cl should I use on x86_64 Linux? 02:32:34 -!- ttessier [n=chatzill@d121-146-132.home3.cgocable.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 02:32:49 I use SBCL, but I hear CCL works very well too. 02:33:19 pkhuong, does it build natively on x64 or do I need to get a 32bit binary? 02:33:20 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 02:33:50 puddingpimp: they target amd64, if that's what you're asking. 02:34:15 pkhuong, thanks, and stuff for cmucl should work on sbcl right? (being a fork) 02:34:26 I'm a bit of a lisp newb 02:35:04 but I want to get into CL music, sounds appealing being able to write music programmatically 02:35:44 how do I get sbcl to work in inferior-lisp on emacs22? 02:35:56 do Ijust symlink it to /usr/bin/lisp? 02:36:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:36:45 <_3b> cmucl specific code probably won't work on sbcl, but portable CL code should be OK 02:37:27 good morning 02:37:47 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:18 if I want to learn gui lisp programming, what api should I read? I prefer XT/Tk/Motif over GTK/QT 02:38:51 If you want a more Lispy kind of GUI interface toolkit, you should try CLIM. 02:39:12 minion: Please tell puddingpimp about CLIM. 02:39:12 puddingpimp: look at CLIM: The Common Lisp Interface Manager (CLIM) is a powerful Lisp-based programming interface that provides a layered set of portable facilities for constructing user interfaces. http://www.cliki.net/CLIM 02:39:18 minion: Please tell puddingpimp about McCLIM. 02:39:19 puddingpimp: look at McCLIM: McCLIM is Mike McDonald's Free and portable implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp ueber-Graphics Toolkit and a Common Lisp Library. http://www.cliki.net/McCLIM 02:39:49 thanks 02:40:03 like XT/Tk/Motif, McCLIM is ugly as sin. Presumably this is not the aspect of XT/Tk/Motif its adherents appreciate :) 02:40:07 puddingpimp: But that's only if you feel brave and don't mind having your ideas of how a GUI library should look, turned completely inside-out. 02:40:51 I just looked on line, but it's hard for a newbie to work out what people are actually using and what is stale (besides website timestamps) 02:41:11 puddingpimp: that's why you should come here and ask. 02:41:36 yay 02:42:34 I'm used to certain other (unnamed) language channels, where it is the norm to flame non-guru users :( 02:42:42 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:43:01 puddingpimp: #lisp tends to be friendly as long as the questions are relevant. 02:43:42 so no "how do I do this in COBOL?" type questions then ;) 02:44:16 puddingpimp: #lisp members tend to get irritated by bad English, SMS-style abbreviations, and unfounded opinions on the part of people who really have no clue. 02:44:29 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 02:44:47 puddingpimp: oh, and by questions that they can find by a simple Google, or by looking at the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 02:45:22 hefner, I've always thought of Motif/CDE as the epitome of UI look and feel 02:47:30 <_deepfire> beach, speaking of ELF: git://git.feelingofgreen.ru/{pergamum,bintype,cl-io-elf} is it 02:47:45 _deepfire: Thanks, I'll check it out! 02:48:16 <_deepfire> it also depends on alexandria and iterate 02:49:19 _deepfire: OK, that should not be a problem. 02:49:29 <_deepfire> I worked hard yesterday to teach bintype conditional subtyping, so that a single ELF type declaration can support both 32 and 64 bit 02:49:58 _deepfire: neat! Is bintype your own library as well? 02:50:36 <_deepfire> yes 02:51:22 _deepfire: I already like the looks of elf.lisp! 02:51:32 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:55:34 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has joined #lisp 02:57:06 _deepfire: perhaps we should use the bintype library for CLX and Midi, and such. 02:57:11 er, MIDI. 02:57:46 <_deepfire> beach, if you pull from cl-io-elf, I just committed a small fix to elf-file-section 02:58:27 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:28 done 02:58:28 <_deepfire> beach, bintype has enormous overhead, because of its flexibility... I have not done performance optimisations yet 02:59:04 _deepfire: couldn't that be fixed with some OnLisp-like compile-time trickery. 02:59:35 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has quit [Client Quit] 03:00:10 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:28 _deepfire do you have support for bitfields ? 03:00:34 <_deepfire> xristos, yes 03:01:21 optional fields depending on presence of others ? 03:02:08 <_deepfire> beach, the answer is complex, I'm doing a lot at compile time, I believe 03:02:38 <_deepfire> xristos, the problem is that CL doesn't support that, and BINTYPE:PARSE outputs a class or a structure 03:04:26 ths [n=ths@HSI-KBW-091-089-185-014.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 03:04:39 what about fields whose size is dictated by previous fields 03:04:46 <_deepfire> xristos, sure 03:04:56 <_deepfire> xristos, parametrized types too 03:05:09 <_deepfire> in fact, it can parse MOD files 03:05:21 so basically you can dispatch as you read a binary file 03:05:27 <_deepfire> right 03:05:29 on each field and do some processing 03:05:31 ok 03:05:44 sounds good 03:07:14 <_deepfire> the type of fields can conditionally depend (see TYPECASE type in ELF:EHDR), in which case the declared CL slot type is T, but should probably be (OR ...) 03:07:15 you should be able to support optional fields too 03:07:48 for instance just declaring a field to be optional causes a function to run before its read 03:07:54 <_deepfire> xristos, it would mean abandoning either efficient representation or integration with the CL type system 03:08:26 <_deepfire> maybe 03:08:57 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:06 well it depends 03:09:18 i will look at bintype tomorrow to see what you did 03:09:40 <_deepfire> stuffing arrays into class instance and declare accessors areffing into it... maybe.. 03:09:46 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 03:10:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:10:52 <_deepfire> but that means bye-bye slot type declarations 03:12:27 <_deepfire> the current challenge is DWARF, and I guess that's too hard for declarative semantics 03:13:14 have you seen the binary types implementation on pcl ? 03:13:16 <_deepfire> xristos, what would you need optionals for? 03:13:17 afaik its not very complex 03:13:27 network protocols 03:13:41 <_deepfire> oh, you don't want to use bintype for that! 03:13:52 ASN1 :) 03:14:16 *_deepfire* looks up asn1 03:14:30 or google's protocol buffers 03:14:51 well you have optionals/dynamically sized fields/different versions with some fields common 03:15:00 all kinds of messy stuff 03:15:27 I don't know if a CL implementation exists yet but it's quite straightforward to do 03:15:44 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:16:05 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:17 -!- ths_ [n=ths@HSI-KBW-091-089-185-014.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:22:19 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:23:14 evening 03:24:04 hello slyrus 03:24:42 hey beach. so any suggestions on following up on that mcclim bug? 03:25:36 I thought we decided it wasn't a bug. 03:25:39 no? 03:26:18 slyrus: Wasn't it just your PDF that was not up to date? 03:26:37 er... yeah. whoops :) 03:27:37 Serva [n=Serva@129.21.129.191] has joined #lisp 03:28:03 _deepfire: DWARF's binary format doesn't seem as scary as the VM. 03:28:25 -!- adicarlo [i=adam@66-234-56-82.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:28:31 slyrus: Too much on your mind these days? :) 03:30:09 <_deepfire> pkhuong, it seems that properly parsing it would require a notation to represent trees, bintype doesn't do that yet 03:33:39 <_deepfire> well, it all depends on how far the notion of parsing extends 03:34:46 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:35:24 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:39:00 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:29 DWARF is pretty scary if you ask me 03:39:50 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:58 <_deepfire> I must do a proper parser of that at some point 03:41:43 What's with germans and the word "actually"? 03:43:25 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:31 twxfn [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 03:43:42 how would i go about making a benchmark 03:44:01 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 03:44:01 get-decoded-time gives me 03:44:02 something but 03:44:16 is there some better way to do this 03:44:28 twxfn: do you mean something like #'time? 03:44:39 (time (call-my-function foo1 foo2)) 03:44:47 >:O 03:44:55 if it's a quick one, (time (dotimes (i 10000) (call-my-function ...))) 03:45:08 what a language 03:45:19 and it converts numbers to words! 03:45:21 <_< 03:45:29 ordinals AND cardinals 03:45:34 roman numerals, too 03:45:37 >_> 03:45:52 *twxfn* hides from the breasts 03:46:01 see them 03:46:02 ^ 03:46:04 uhhhhh 03:46:07 all pointy and shit 03:46:13 ... 03:46:16 ............... 03:46:26 so it keeps two clocks 03:46:30 one for computation and one for real time? 03:46:42 clhs time 03:46:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm 03:46:48 twxfn: look in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 03:47:19 i already got time to work 03:47:33 i get it 03:47:51 i swear, lisp is simpler than half of the languages i've learned, but the documentation is so dense 03:48:25 twxfn: the CLHS is a specification, not documentation. 03:48:32 i know that 03:48:39 "hyperspec" was my first clue 03:48:42 Is the work done by the PyPy project relating to full-program static analysis applicable to Lisp compilers? 03:49:16 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:38 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.243.177] has joined #lisp 03:54:49 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.243.177] has quit [Client Quit] 03:58:38 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-195-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:59:55 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:00:20 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:00:22 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 04:02:34 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:42 derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 04:10:08 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:11:56 -!- ths [n=ths@HSI-KBW-091-089-185-014.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:12:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 04:17:19 *salex* puts the (nearly) finishing touches on a job applications 04:17:24 slash__ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 04:17:30 it's 20 freaking pages long. 04:17:31 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:34 grrrr. 04:17:51 advanced. 04:18:02 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:18:02 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:18:04 erm, pretend that was grammatica 04:18:14 tic: advanced ... or academic. you decide ;) 04:18:24 there has to be a more sane way to do these things 04:18:25 salex, what the heck have you put on those 20p? 04:18:56 full cv, teaching dossier, research plan 04:19:07 10pt font, too. 04:19:08 :( 04:19:44 and everyone wants a slightly different one, too. pretty much. 04:20:11 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:20:35 anyway, i'm just whinging. this thing has eaten my week so far. 04:21:05 it must be a test. surely they're obligated to give a job to anyone who takes the trouble to fill it out. 04:21:19 Oh! It's something they want you to fill in, not the other way around! 04:21:28 well, prepare. 04:21:43 hefner: the annoying thing is, the probably only carefully read 1 in 10 04:22:09 and for carefully, i mean: past the first page or two 04:22:23 you'd think there could be a ligher weight first pass! 04:22:24 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:22:57 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:23:40 is it possible to call Lisp(SBCL) from C without having to load a shared object file in Lisp? (like how Pythons FFI works) 04:24:29 malune: I don't see how you can call a function that's not linked in. 04:24:44 malune: I was messing around with that to no avail a while ago. I would use ECL for that. 04:24:46 Cryovat [i=isis@akuma.no] has joined #lisp 04:24:58 Hello 04:25:11 hi Cryovat. 04:25:13 mogunus: hmm, i don't really want to use ECL though. :P 04:25:20 I was wondering, is there a function for swapping two items at given indexes in a list? 04:25:29 malune: you want to embed a lisp in your C program? SBCL isn't particularly nice that way. 04:26:01 *hefner* wonders if anyone has taken the heavyweight solution of linking their C code into the sbcl runtime 04:26:01 pkhuong: yeah thats what i would like to do, why is it not nice this way? 04:26:03 Cryovat: rotatef and elt. 04:26:25 malune: well... neither did I. SBCL doesn't really have features for that, though. The ECL api for calling into lisp is really quite nice, though. 04:26:41 Awesome, thanks :) 04:27:04 mogunus: mmh, so no one has done this? 04:27:11 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:45 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:27:54 Cryovat: you might want to look up rotatef too 04:28:00 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:24 malune: *I* have not embedded sbcl successfully, after much gnashing of teeth. I am, however, a major noob. ymmv. 04:28:54 malune: the runtime is a control freak. Callbacks work, if you embed C in CL. 04:28:57 malune: i'm not quite making sense of what you've said. an arbitrary c prog can't call python either. do you mean c code you've called from lisp? 04:30:06 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:40 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 04:30:43 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46BCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:03 salex: As in, i'd like to be able to #include "lisp.h" and then link -lsbcl with gcc 04:31:34 going the other way round is more difficult. btw, what's wrong with ECL for you? isn't that sort of the point of it? 04:31:38 yeah. no so straightforward. why are you resisting ecl? 04:31:54 and/or why not the other way around? 04:32:31 well i'd like to use SBCL because its extremely fast and i'm used to it 04:33:02 and it can't be the other way around because its a large C program which won't let me turn it into a .so 04:35:09 what do you need to pass between them? 04:36:08 salex: floating point data 04:36:43 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-214.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:37:38 how much? 04:38:04 between ~3M to 100M+ 04:38:42 how often? 04:38:56 iow, what's your I/O to calc load look like? 04:39:08 'cause if it's low enough, you can do that on disk :) 04:39:14 its not real-time :) 04:39:15 otherwise, i'd give ecl a shot 04:39:57 i often pass files between, but even if they're gigabytes of data, it's typically 'here, load this and go chew on it for a few hours' so i don't care about i/o speed much 04:39:57 i'm trying to call lisp from blender basically, do you know of it? 04:39:58 malune: you can easily read/write (2) into an array of float in both lisp and sbcl. 04:40:08 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:40:16 *in both C and sbcl. 04:40:25 malune: i know what blender is 04:40:43 for realtime you'd be screwed, but otherwise, try just assing arrays 04:40:47 *passing 04:40:54 easy in both, pretty fast 04:41:06 hmm, like via a stream? 04:41:36 i mean its not 100% about the data, its more about having a lisp available in blender that i can use instead of python :) 04:42:27 to write exporters, etc etc 04:45:14 the reason i wanted to be able to embed SBCL and not ECL is because i'd like to embed my mini 3d engine in blender also 04:45:55 why can't you? 04:46:33 with ECL i mean. did you write it sbcl-specific (if so, why?) 04:47:30 actually i wrote it on CMUCL, but it works with SBCL... I have not tested it with ECL. but i'd like the frame rate to stay the same... :D 04:48:05 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:15 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E458AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:53 -!- break-mode is now known as spiderbyte 04:48:58 from the benchmarks on cliki it would seem i would lose performance 04:49:25 that's a pretty bizarre assumption. 04:49:52 anyway, now you know: doing what you want to do with sbcl is at best going to be difficult 04:49:52 is it? 04:50:50 the assumption? kind of. I'd even believe it might be a reasonable assumption for standalone code. but that's not what we're talking about 04:51:37 how the hell can you get from cliki performance on simple benchmarks to how you're going to compare embedded like that? 04:51:44 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:51:49 its stand alone code which i would like to be embedded in blender (which, to render 3d has the same performance reqs...) 04:52:08 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:52:17 in fact the embedded 3d code would be almost identical . . . 04:52:38 malune: sort of. you said a 3d engine, right? a big part of how fast that willwork will depend how fast you can pass small data around 04:52:54 or ar you talking an off-line render? in which case, never mind 04:53:25 -!- slash__ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 04:53:36 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 04:54:04 no, a 3d engine. as it works at the moment it is very fast using CMUCL, I guess i should try it with ECL to see the difference in performance... 04:55:55 sure, but how much of the perf hit is due to how you embed? you can't answer that from benches, was my point 04:56:33 ooc, what purpose to embed your engine in something that has a good engine? 04:56:57 salex: my engine is in lisp entirely ... :) 04:57:06 <_3b> are you sure implementation speed matters for your engine anyway? (not limited by opengl/gfx card/etc) 04:57:24 malune: so? what does embedding it get you 04:57:26 _3b: indeed? 04:57:35 erm, indeed! 04:57:50 salex: the ability to use blender in conjunction with the engine for a better tool. 04:58:38 malune: are you intentionally being obtuse? blender has a good engine. are you doing something it doesn't? do you plan to? embedding your own there seems a lot of effort for little gain, on the surface 04:58:53 _3b: well scene management, LOD, collision detection etc requires performance by cpu 04:59:21 salex: yes i want to do stuff that it does not do, have you seen its inbuilt engine? 04:59:24 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:28 i understand wanting to replace python by lisp, which is basically what ECL was designed for 04:59:33 <_3b> salex: it isn't an unreasonable thing to want to do, if the goal is to create things for use in the embedded engine 05:00:01 <_3b> salex: since previewing in blender doesn't tell you what it will look like in the other engine 05:00:02 _3b: sure. not unreasonable. i just don't understand the resistance to the most immediate path 05:00:17 based on vague unquantified performance concerns 05:00:21 salex: i am not an immediate person lol 05:00:57 hey, i'm not trying to stop you! have fun embedding sbcl if that's wha tyou want to do 05:01:07 <_3b> malune: ok, if you plan on running large-scale scenes in it i could see it mattering... still should test before worrying about it though :) 05:01:10 salex: i'm concerned about ECL performance degradation yes, but those aren't my reasons for wanting to embed my engine ... 05:01:11 your description of why just didn't make any sense to me, is all 05:01:27 re: embedding sbcl - and make sure to send patches in if it works! ;) 05:02:09 _3b: large scale scenes are indeed the plan 05:02:14 malune: but it doesn't make sense to be concerned about htis without knowing what the actual performance issues are ... and it doesn't seem to me you have any idea 05:02:38 it seems you have two issues though 05:02:48 salex: well, i don't have any idea about ECLs performance over CMUCLs, other than what I read on cliki and cmucl.org, you are right 05:03:15 we aren't even talkinga b out ECL vs. cmucl 05:03:21 rather, a very specific situation 05:03:26 but forget that 05:03:35 you also seem to have too issues 05:03:45 1) use CL instead of python in blender 05:04:01 makes sense, you're scripting mostly or whatever, and using the underlying blender teck 05:04:12 tech. that's what ECL was desinged for 05:04:14 yes, if this was my only issue i would use ECL 05:04:18 2) yoiur 3d engine 05:04:34 my question is, why even bother with coupling 2 and 1 together? 05:04:48 use ecl to muck about in blender 05:05:01 export scenes etc., load them into your renderer 05:05:05 so that artists can use blender to try out their scenes in the engine and see what it looks like 05:05:06 ... am I missing someting? 05:05:24 i.e click custom render ... scene in 3d engine rather than blender engine 05:05:49 you mean your 3d engine rather than blenders 3d engine. ok, i can see that. 05:05:54 i've already exported blender scenes for use in engine, but i would like to have a better tool for artists 05:06:09 but still, you don't need to embed; it'll be a bit slower over a pipe but still 05:06:15 try that anyway. 05:06:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-468beab8ecacefab] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:56 salex: hmm, i suppose i could keep the engine decoupled and pipe it, this is what i am doing now pretty much. 05:08:36 that's nice for coding anyway, 'cause when you blow up you don't take the whole thing with yout 05:09:20 yeah, one of my artists wanted to use the engine in blender and at the time i didn't think it was such an unreasonable request. 05:11:00 but upon reflection and talking to you guys, i think i will stick with modifying the scripting subsystem 05:11:39 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 05:12:07 anyway, have fun with that. rendering stuff is fun 05:12:40 global illum. especially ;) 05:14:07 salex: indeed, and thanks for your help. :) 05:20:36 btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f271.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 05:22:10 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:23:44 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:24:55 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:25:23 is there a lisp function to create a list of numbers (like seq(1) on Unix)? 05:26:45 no, but you can write (loop for i from 0 below n collect i), or write your own. 05:27:04 hefner: ok, thanks 05:30:31 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:54 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 05:40:39 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-122-148.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 05:41:41 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:43:14 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.251.75] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:47:27 -!- away-mode is now known as spiderbyte 05:51:13 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 05:59:48 Is the order of evaluation of function arguments part of the specification in Lisp? 06:01:35 enigmus: In Common Lisp, function arguments are evaluated in left-to-right order. 06:01:39 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:12 rme: ah, that's what I thought, thanks. 06:04:32 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 06:08:46 gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:09:25 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:12:02 good morning 06:12:24 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:17:00 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-092-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:18 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:21:06 borism [n=boris@m213-102-82-77.cust.tele2.ee] has joined #lisp 06:21:37 rme: you're the one working on clozure/x86? 06:21:56 lichtblau: yes 06:22:38 are you also working on the windows port or is that done by someone else? 06:24:57 Gary Byers has been working on the Windows port lately. I'm pretty Windows-ignorant. 06:25:26 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-115-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 06:32:31 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 06:36:42 morning 06:38:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 06:39:43 hello Krystof 06:39:46 hello mvillene1ve 06:42:22 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:48:29 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 06:49:04 I get pretty annoyed when packages decide to work fine at one time, and completely start failing another time. 06:49:32 and then I'm forced to do package-name:function, even though I'm :importing the package, and it causes no conflicts I know of :( 06:49:49 you must be doing something wrong 06:49:54 that's what I'm thinking 06:50:05 but it's really (seemingly) random. 06:50:29 happened to me with two other libraries. Now I just got slapped with it again, even though I've been using it the same way for over a week now. 06:50:36 package just stopped working. :| 06:51:16 -!- borism [n=boris@m213-102-82-77.cust.tele2.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:51:47 <_3b> sure the package you are trying to work in exists? 06:52:05 sykopomp: get and use (defpackage-form:defpackage-form :your-package) to check whether it matches your expectations 06:52:59 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has left #lisp 06:53:04 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:54:02 icebox [n=icebox@83.225.25.122] has joined #lisp 06:54:14 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:54:55 michaelw: heh. Thanks, I'll use that. 06:55:17 looks like this is one of those nights when all the bugs start flying out of nowhere, one after the other. My stack just blew up from doing nothing :( 07:00:22 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:00:40 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.6] has joined #lisp 07:02:18 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:07:49 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:12:45 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has joined #lisp 07:15:22 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 07:18:20 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 07:23:52 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:26:19 ehu` [i=3ed68bef@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-15002d45e3ed18a0] has joined #lisp 07:27:40 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:28:31 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit [] 07:34:47 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 07:35:23 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has left #lisp 07:40:06 -!- btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f271.bb.sky.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:42:56 -!- mulligan [n=user@e177080090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:44:02 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:44:04 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:44:13 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:44:23 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 07:44:23 avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has joined #lisp 07:47:02 -!- icebox [n=icebox@83.225.25.122] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:47:38 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 07:55:13 gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 07:55:46 -!- ivanst_ is now known as ivanst 08:02:55 -!- away-mode is now known as spiderbyte 08:04:42 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@166.pool85-54-98.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 08:14:12 gzip4_ [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 08:14:39 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:20:10 -!- derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:02 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@166.pool85-54-98.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:22:13 how close is ABCLs java interface map to other ava insterfaces like Allegros? 08:22:31 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:22:51 [retype] how close is ABCL's java interface map to other java ffi's like Allegro's or others? 08:24:26 -!- mr_ank [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:38 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:54 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:31:55 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:40 Good morning. 08:34:39 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:34:39 sp 08:35:36 sp? 08:36:53 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB99CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:57 ivarref [n=ivarref@padme.ifi.uio.no] has joined #lisp 08:42:01 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-122-148.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:42:57 he was marking a misspelling - lichtblau left out a lot of letters in the previous sentence (: 08:43:42 "/join #li" is what I left out. (Sorry, ERC hates me.) 08:44:13 heh 08:49:09 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 08:50:32 -!- gzip4_ is now known as gzip4 08:50:32 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 08:53:03 gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 08:53:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 08:54:34 lispm [n=joswig@e177145079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:53 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 08:55:19 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:37 rsynnott: I heard that you're working on a Thrift port for CL? What's its status? 09:02:32 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 09:06:57 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:19 hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 09:16:11 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:16:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Client Quit] 09:17:48 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:18:38 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:23:07 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 09:23:21 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-057-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:15 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:45 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:26:07 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-122-148.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 09:31:37 MHOOO [n=nah@u-5-126.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:34:03 -!- spiderbyte 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[n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:35:28 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 11:36:12 splittist [n=splittis@118.143.4.5] has joined #lisp 11:36:18 morning minion 11:37:39 should (jmethod "java.lang.Class" "getName") refernces be named #'JAVA-LANG-CLASS-GET-NAME or #'GET-NAME-JAVA-LANG-CLASS ? 11:38:21 method-instanceclassname or instanceclassname-method 11:38:21 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 11:39:36 for fields i did instanceclassname-fieldname 11:39:43 the latter, if you don't want your readers to mentally translate names back and forth 11:40:12 yeah the first was kinda confusing 11:40:32 oops the second confusing.. but i'll take your advice 11:40:39 (unless they have no reason whatsoever to know that the functionality in question is implemented in java, anyway) 11:41:14 i just want to give them predicablity 11:41:25 also, you may want to separate the two parts of the name in some more obvious manner 11:41:37 #'JAVA-LANG-CLASS/GET-NAME, say 11:41:44 JAVA-LANG-CLASS-%GET-NAME 11:41:57 something like that, yeah :) 11:41:58 ah yeah 11:42:10 and you use the dash for both dots and decamelizing... 11:42:34 yeah, might as well leave the dot as is 11:42:35 yeha i was kinda overdashing somewhat ;P 11:42:56 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:56 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:56 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@166.pool85-54-98.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:56 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:56 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:56 -!- Spune [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit 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quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:59 -!- cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:59 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:59 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:59 -!- aking [n=aking@207.210.78.49] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:59 -!- andrerav_ [i=andrerav@tvilling2.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:59 -!- dublpaws [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:43:02 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [No route to host] 11:43:28 is there something speaking against using a package for the namespace part? 11:43:37 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 11:43:37 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4592F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:37 kij 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joined #lisp 11:43:38 ggbbgg [n=russd@willers.employees.org] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 sburson [n=gyro@c-98-234-71-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-49-80.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 esden_ [n=esdentem@atradig126.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 andrerav_ [i=andrerav@tvilling2.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 Xach [n=xach@207.5.178.18] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 dublpaws [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 aking [n=aking@207.210.78.49] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 jamesjb [i=jamesjb@slacknet.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 Fractal [i=frax@institutionalized.s0ciopath.org] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 Guest26197 [n=user@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 11:44:49 so.. #'JAVA.LANG.CLASS/GET-NAME 11:46:31 michaelw, you man leaving the packagename in but some spearator between it and the class? 11:46:45 in general, it doesn't make sense at all to put include the class name in such a mapping, except possibly for a static method, which getName isn't 11:47:45 (Due to overloading you can have multple Java methods for the same Lisp function name anyway. Disambiguating only the class itself doesn't solve that.) 11:48:11 in he non static methods is have a method it always expects the first argument is coercable to the JAVA-OBJECT that represents something callable 11:48:37 then after that it uses the remainder of args to guess the best match 11:48:47 has anyone used elephant with the postmodern backend? 11:49:40 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:03 (MY.PACKAGE.MYCLASS#INNERCLASS/MY-INST-METHOD MYINST arg0 arg1) 11:50:34 (MY.PACKAGE.MYCLASS/MY-STATIC-METHOD arg0 arg1) 11:52:11 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 anyone with CVS head slime around who can test something for me? 11:56:12 nevermind 12:00:46 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:46 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-082-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:46 -!- Maghnus 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joined #lisp 12:01:51 wolfboy22 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has joined #lisp 12:01:51 mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has joined #lisp 12:01:51 chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 12:01:51 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 12:01:51 Balooga [n=luke@65.111.175.229] has joined #lisp 12:03:15 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 dmiles_afk pasted "classname mangles" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68556 12:05:47 oops lisppaste the wrong side ;) http://paste.lisp.org/display/68556 12:08:31 re: http://paste.lisp.org/display/68556 ignore that 12 second time.. i was stepping thu debugger ! 12:08:46 oh lag lag 12:12:03 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has left #lisp 12:12:26 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:12:28 the %%class-field% is for static fields in classes.. the (symbol-value ..) is a location that chages the actual field 12:14:26 the user has to explicitly make all this madness happen.. i just trying for a symbolname polution contract 12:15:58 matley [n=matley@83.224.209.61] has joined #lisp 12:16:21 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:19:59 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has quit ["Most of the Universe plays hard-to-get"] 12:20:55 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:32 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has joined #lisp 12:21:39 G'morning all. 12:22:09 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-126.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:22:41 yo nyef 12:24:08 dmiles_afk annotated #68556 with "example use" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68556#1 12:24:12 Anything interesting happening? 12:24:36 lisp50 12:24:43 Ah, right. 12:24:55 I hope that videos will be made available. 12:26:37 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 12:26:44 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:28:09 Lisp, the language that was born before 63% of all Lisp users were born 12:28:36 Lisp: Older than dirt and twice as smart 12:28:57 Lisp, the language of the dinosaurs 12:29:28 Lisp, the great improvement over its successors 12:30:40 talking of old, IRC is past 20 aswell now. 12:31:08 Next year, Common Lisp will be 25 12:31:12 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:31:29 Common Lisp the Language was published in 1984 12:31:41 at least im older then CL then =) 12:32:06 it was ready right in time for you 12:32:15 As Donald Knuth has shown. Old is not neccesaily bad. It just needs some refurbishment from time to time. (For instance concrete is a good solution even if it is from roman times.) 12:32:15 first irc server was on in august 88 12:32:23 yeah, Member of #lisp the Abstract Entity was published in 1976 12:38:32 hm. lisp conferences need better SEO. 12:38:57 every time I google-search for one, I get mailing list and blog posts before the page that's actually relevant 12:39:20 isn't that with all topics now? ;-) 12:39:58 with some, more than with others (: 12:40:17 http://www.lisp50.org/schedule/index.html 12:40:21 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:25 looks like a looooooong day 12:41:22 somebody should ask Will Clinger how he likes R6RS 12:41:46 wow, panel at 19:00 12:41:51 that /is/ a long day 12:41:59 starts at 8:30 12:42:39 I hope for all the attendees that the Stoyan talk doesn't go off a tangent again (-: 12:42:46 50 is a very young age. just ask our children circa 2060 or so! (don't use the word "retirement" if you value your life) 12:42:54 the archeology bit at ilc07 was pretty cool 12:43:14 what was the archeology bit? 12:43:51 lispm: the one where he told us about how he tried to find the date when what mccarthy had, was lisp 12:44:04 ah 12:44:21 when the feet were both on the new continent 12:44:22 the other half of his talk was lambda calculus intro course slides with unbalanced parens /-: 12:44:28 haha 12:44:48 who needs balanced parens when the code never runs 12:44:51 I can't say I like this dwelling in the past too much. The new/old ratio could've been larger. 12:44:57 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 12:45:09 Unbalanced Parens and The Hopeful Outcasts will be the opening acts at lisp50. Wild Inferiors is headlining. 12:45:15 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@6-114.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:45:19 haha 12:45:25 michaelw: it's an event where they celebrate lisp's age 12:45:31 I suppose looking back is warranted 12:45:44 if it's balanced by events that look to the future (: 12:45:52 Lisp, you need parens for programming 12:46:31 Forth, yes, for comments. 12:47:09 You could take a logo/haskell approach. Dismissing the first enclosng parenthesis. But personally I find it more confusing than Lisp 12:48:21 actually I'd like to see the old stuff running 12:48:35 Teitelman should have an Interlisp machine with him 12:48:55 antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1279542688.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:49:12 Kunze a SUN 2 or 3 12:49:33 Someone should have a LispM emulator running. 12:49:35 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:50 or a TOPS20 emulator 12:49:53 McCarthy will need a truck or two, then :) 12:49:58 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:50:01 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:50:44 btw., I see that some source code has been rescued 12:50:46 opengenera runs on 64 bit linux 12:50:47 http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP 12:51:13 there is some source for old CL implementations, LeLisp, Interlisp, etc 12:51:34 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:46 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:52 yay, NLAMBDA! 12:53:04 now, is there an emulator for a IBM 704? 12:53:24 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:56 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:55:51 it's also that you need to dress right for Lisp50 12:56:07 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:28 some years ago when I was at a Lisp conference, somebody was wearing a LMI t-shirt 12:56:37 nice 12:56:51 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:57:07 I was tempted to buy it from him ;-) 12:57:13 haha 13:00:57 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:09 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-5-144.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:26 There's nothing like having sizeof(unsigned long) change to make you appreciate Lisp type specifiers. 13:03:07 tee hee 13:03:23 true. resilient even to byte size changes (: 13:04:16 err, I mean machine word. or something (: 13:04:25 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 13:05:40 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 13:05:50 Sure, CL will still behave the same on a 7-bit or 9-bit machine. 13:06:51 is there anything like a lisp-1 CL? 13:07:07 if it's lisp1, it wouldn't be CL (: 13:07:16 i'd love a scheme with all the power of CL 13:07:28 (or a CL with all the neatness of Scheme ;) 13:07:50 nyef: the size of fixnum can change, so to speak. 13:07:56 sometimes i think that you can be *either* powerful *or* beautiful, but not both 13:08:06 The only things scheme has that I wish CL did is guaranteed tail recursion and a willingness to use ? and ! in standard functions 13:08:08 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:08:20 kreuter: True. But the lower limit of fixnumitude remains the same. 13:08:35 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:08:46 ecraven: To some people, power is beautiful. 13:08:55 what's so elegant about Scheme? 13:08:59 ecraven: this sentiment can be discussed forever without reaching any conclusions, because both power and beauty mean different things to everyone (: 13:09:04 To others, line noise is beautiful. 13:09:14 like SETI 13:09:16 I for one find quite a few CL programs beautiful (: 13:09:39 dlowe: I for one welcome our new line-noise overlords? 13:09:48 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:51 the things i miss most in lisp (compared to scheme) is proper LAMBDAs, and i don't like FUNCALL 13:10:06 why can't i do ((lambda (x) (+ x 1)) 2) in CL :( 13:10:07 what's a proper lambda? 13:10:12 you can 13:10:28 ecraven: As kreuter says, you can. 13:10:41 A bare lambda expression is valid there. 13:10:52 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:10:52 lol, i remember there was something about LAMBDA in CL that i didn't like, but it seems i can't remember what it was exactly 13:10:57 i miss funcall in scheme 13:10:59 the question is, is there really a use for that 13:11:08 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:15 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:29 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:11:30 ((lambda () ...) ...) is well worth disliking 13:11:44 anyway, i like both CL and Scheme, i just wish there were some "middle ground" ;) 13:12:00 ecraven: Clojure, maybe? 13:12:06 *H4ns* was about to suggest that 13:12:06 arc? 13:12:16 newlisp? 13:12:27 Rolling your own? 13:12:36 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 13:12:52 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:12:59 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45CE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:24 jsnell: why don't you like ((lambda ...) ...)? 13:13:41 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:13:50 interestingly, several opening parens in a row is a painful sight in Lisp, just as it is in "conventional" syntaxes. 13:13:50 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-082-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 13:13:56 kreuter: Because, at the end of the day, it's a funny name for LET? 13:14:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:14:24 because it adds a special case to the "grammar" without adding any expressivity 13:14:29 and also because it's ufly 13:14:33 *ugly 13:14:40 ok 13:14:41 *dlowe* likes ufly. 13:14:44 it all depends on what you think LAMBDA is or should do ;) 13:14:52 dlowe: It gives you wings? 13:15:03 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:15:32 nyef: Icarian wings, yes 13:15:37 nyef: I'm willing to imagine that some kinds of macro might have an easier time compiling to a ((lambda ...) ...) than to a LET form. 13:15:41 Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has joined #lisp 13:15:48 s/compiling/expanding/ 13:16:08 actually, it's probably for symbol macros 13:16:11 and then to add the special case, the spec had to invent the fiction that what really goes into the car of a form is a function name, and a lambda is a function name 13:16:29 I think it's just for islisp compability 13:16:40 no, that's the lambda macro 13:16:46 I thought the only specific... yeah. That. 13:16:52 ah, they weren't added at the same time? 13:16:54 that has been a profitable two-way street 13:17:08 I think that lambda as the first element of an expression goes back to CLtL1. 13:17:43 er, "goes back" in CL proper. 13:17:47 ok. but I just don't see the benefit for a macro writer of (,fun ,@args) over (funcall ,fun ,@args) either 13:17:56 fair enough. 13:18:00 jsnell: Less typing? 13:18:09 I don't think I've ever used ((lambda ...) ...) 13:18:23 since when has cl been about less typing? :-) 13:18:26 I don't think I've ever used ((lambda ...) ...) outside of a joke. 13:18:52 (I may not have used it in a joke either, but I wouldn't put it past me.) 13:19:13 drewc mentioned he used it in a macroexpansion, i think. 13:19:16 personally, a lambda expression is the same as a function name, so if i can write (FACT 5), why shouldn't i write ((LAMBDA ..) 5) ;) 13:19:20 I'm using it now. It's just that the (lambda ...) actually looks like 13:19:24 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:19:32 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:46 s/function name/function "object"/ 13:20:04 ecraven: because you can't write ((symbol-function 'foo) ...) 13:20:13 and you can't write ((setf foo) 1 2) 13:20:34 Can anybody teach me why this does not work?? http://paste.lisp.org/display/68558 13:20:34 tomoyuki28jp, memo from matimago: You shouldn't use a generic function since your types don't match. What if you wanted to check if a web page is readable? String is already taken, so you couldn't pass a URI... Better define various functions: asdf-system-readable-p web-page-readable-p file-readable-p etc. or define classes to denote your resources. 13:20:34 tomoyuki28jp, memo from matimago: You could have classes such as file-resource, asdf-system-resource, web-page resource with as attribute pathname, strings, symbols, etc. (readablep (make-instance 'file-resource :path #P"/usr/local/systems/foo.asd")) -> the file foo.asd is readable ; (readablep (make-instance 'asdf-system-resource :path #P"/usr/local/systems/foo.asd")) -> the asdf system (with all its components) are readable. 13:20:40 i guess it all has to do with lisp-1 vs. lisp-2, it makes a lot of sense to me, but i come from lisp-1s 13:20:43 and the latter really is a function name, rather than something that we pretend is a function name just so that putting it into the car could be justified in the spec 13:23:01 ecraven: http://lispm.dyndns.org/documentation/prefix-dylan/book.annotated/annotated-manual.html 13:23:14 scheme with clos 13:23:36 lispm: yes, unfortunately they changed to an infix syntax :( 13:23:55 i'd use prefix dylan any day :) 13:24:04 i've even been thinking about modifying some scheme to work like it 13:24:59 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:25:23 ecraven, the few Dylan users should just switch back to prefix 13:25:25 jsnell: the CLHS glossary entry for "function name" doesn't include lambda expressions, and the evaluation rule in 3.1.2.1.2 just special cases compond forms whose cars are conses. 13:26:45 i've seen that rationalization in many places, though. 13:26:46 lispm: i asked, they won't (: 13:26:52 DanielRM [i=5c2b420b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-75a83749d181b7f4] has joined #lisp 13:26:53 not in the spec, necessarily 13:26:59 you did? cool 13:27:05 okay. 13:27:33 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4592F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:34 ecraven, even ISLisp is Lisp-2 13:27:45 eulisp looked interesting too ;) 13:27:54 yes 13:28:29 I think there are Common Lisp variants with a single namespace - but nothing exciting 13:28:53 There are Schemes with CLOS-like object systems, too. 13:29:07 chandler, I miss the keyword args 13:29:22 There are some which have extensions for that, too. 13:29:38 matimago: I did read your message via minion. Thank you very much! I appreciate it. 13:30:36 *stassats`* use gauche scheme for simple scripts, it has keyword args 13:31:16 that sounds useful 13:31:17 Yes, Gauche is very nice. It has a CLOS-like system too, and a number of other features that would be familiar to CLers. 13:32:32 sorry if this is a stupid question, but what exactly is the difference between lisp-1s and lisp-2s? 13:32:38 MHOOO [n=nah@0-103.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:32:42 might be useful to identify the most CL 'compatible' Scheme implementation 13:33:10 Jarvellis: Lisp2 makes a difference between variable names and function names 13:33:34 tomoyuki28jp: the second form doesn't work because Common Lisp DOES NOT evaluate the item in first position in applications. 13:33:42 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html about lisp-1/2 13:34:00 tomoyuki28jp: this is different in Scheme, where no difference is made between the operator and the argument. 13:34:11 lispm, stassats`, thanks 13:34:29 Jarvellis: in Common Lisp you can write (defun foo (list) (list list)) 13:34:48 without confusing the variable and the function 13:34:54 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:13 whereas in say scheme you need the #' thing? 13:35:15 In Scheme code you will read (define (foo lst) (list lst)) 13:36:01 matimago: So using funcall or apply is the only ways to call it? 13:36:07 Yes. 13:36:26 #' is from Common Lisp and #'list means (function list) means the functional value of the name LIST 13:36:28 tomoyuki28jp: (lambda (x) (1+ x)) _names_ a function, like SIN names the function calculating a sinus. 13:36:41 matimago: oh, I see. 13:36:45 ok, i'll just go an quietly read a book then 13:36:52 (function (lambda (x) (1+ x))) evaluates to the function named (lambda (x) (1+ x)). 13:37:03 *chandler* wonders whose sinuses matimago is calculating 13:37:22 tomoyuki28jp: moreover, LAMBDA is a macro that expands to (function (lambda (x) (1+ x))), so when you _evalulate_ the function name (lambda (x) (1+ x)), you get the named function too. 13:37:36 (sin (* 3/2 pi)) 13:38:09 -!- DanielRM [i=5c2b420b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-75a83749d181b7f4] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:38:45 matimago: I was thinking to create scheme's cut macro in lisp. What do you think about it? Lispers don't like scheme's cut macro? 13:39:04 s/sinus/sine/ ; I always forgot this false-friend... 13:39:43 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:40:14 tomoyuki28jp: I don't know the cut macro, but you've got one a way: define a macro lisp1 that will apply the evaluation rules of scheme to its body. (lisp1 ((if (oddp (random 2)) '+ '-) 3 4)) 13:40:16 linguistic nasal demons! 13:40:32 tomoyuki28jp: there's an example of implementation of such a macro in c.l.l by Pascal Costanza. 13:41:20 /quit 13:41:23 doh 13:41:25 No! 13:41:30 -!- splittist [n=splittis@118.143.4.5] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 13:41:32 Please, stay with us! 13:41:34 Too late... 13:42:14 splittist has split. 13:42:38 matimago: I see. Thanks a lot for the useful info. 13:42:53 matimago: The scheme's cut is this. http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-26/srfi-26.html 13:43:06 Just a syntax sugar of lambda. 13:44:27 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 13:47:11 Serva [n=Serva@129.21.78.55] has joined #lisp 13:50:11 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@6-114.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:52:38 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@0-103.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:53:56 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:20 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:01:58 -!- l_a_m_ [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:03:30 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has joined #lisp 14:04:34 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:45 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:54 milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has joined #lisp 14:10:45 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [] 14:13:07 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:43 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:16:17 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:17:24 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:17:31 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:56 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:11 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has joined #lisp 14:20:51 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 14:21:16 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:23:48 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 14:25:34 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.254.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:21 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 14:26:40 Why an argument is _required_ after &REST directive in a function lambda list, while same doesn't apply to &KEY directive? 14:26:57 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:04 er, because they're two different situations? 14:28:27 matley- [n=matley@83.225.129.141] has joined #lisp 14:29:24 Is it unfeasible to expect no necessity for an argument after &rest? 14:29:52 -!- matley- is now known as matlet 14:30:03 I just don't understand how the analogy to &key holds 14:30:07 -!- matlet is now known as matley- 14:30:55 anyway, I don't think accepting any number of arguments and ignoring them was really on the spec author's minds 14:32:22 chandler: For instance consider implementing a method case. Generic definition can force you to supply a &REST in the lambda list, but you don't need any of the passed &REST variables. (A quite common situation in SHARED/INSTANCE-INITIALIZE.) 14:33:04 I don't think it can force any such thing 14:33:21 Cymew [n=user@d193-205-190.home3.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:28 (bicbw) 14:33:30 I don't think it actually needs the &rest there. You can just use &key &allow-other-keys, can't you? 14:34:04 vy pasted "ALPHA-CHAR data type" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68561 14:34:40 ... what? 14:35:05 why are you using QUOTE as a slot name? 14:35:53 Is that for me? Huh? 14:35:57 Yes, it's for you. 14:36:06 (defclass alpha-char () 'character) 14:36:21 ALPHA-CHAR has two slots, named QUOTE and CHARACTER 14:36:27 Oh! I confused it with DEFTYPE. 14:36:34 Let me fix it. 14:36:47 *Xach* didn't actually know that a symbol worked as a slot specifier in defclass until now 14:37:10 *Xach* does not think he will use that knowledge any time soon, so might forget it 14:37:31 Xach: Something to remember for when you need to write job-security code ;) 14:38:00 sellout: the quote trick is good too. 14:38:09 (defclass fribble () #'meep) 14:38:32 or even (defclass fribble nil #'meep) 14:38:53 Oh wait, you mean you didn't know (defclass foo () (bar baz)) was valid? 14:39:00 Yeah, the QUOTE is key. 14:39:10 nope. i've always used the name-and-options form. 14:39:15 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:39:16 i like initargs and accessors too much! 14:40:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-87.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:42:48 How can I create a type of ALPHA-CHAR with ALPHA-CHAR-P constraint set on it? 14:43:01 Is such a thing possible? 14:43:17 yes 14:43:18 clhs deftype 14:43:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_deftp.htm 14:44:05 Hrm... I should have seen SATISFIES keyword. 14:44:07 vixey: Thanks. 14:44:40 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:45:21 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:45:29 hello 14:46:27 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 14:46:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-73.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:46:48 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 14:47:42 What's wrong with (deftype alpha-char () '(satisfies alpha-char-p))? 14:48:07 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:29 vy, why do you think something is wrong with it 14:49:59 vixey: SBCL complains so. 14:50:10 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.209.61] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:50:11 ok and did you read the error message? 14:50:28 The value NIL is not of type SB-KERNEL:CLASSOID. 14:50:59 did it previously name a class? 14:51:18 SBCL may not like that very much. 14:51:20 Yep, but I typed (makunbound 'alpha-char). Isn't that sufficient? 14:51:37 That had no effect whatsoever. 14:51:48 vy: This isn't a lisp-1 ;) 14:51:52 It wasn't BOUNDP. 14:52:31 I wasn't very hopeful about it either. 14:53:52 Your best option is to unintern the symbol. 14:53:54 (setf (find-class 'alpha-char) nil) would've helped 14:54:08 It seems like that's a case (like with defining a generic with an incompatible lambda list) where there should be a restart that removes the existing class. 14:54:13 cmm: maybe :-) 14:54:22 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-115-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:51 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:55:53 How should I interpret "unknown element type in array type: (VECTOR ALPHA-CHAR)" error message raised for (deftype alpha-string () '(vector alpha-char)) (coerce "abc" 'alpha-string). 14:56:02 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit [] 14:56:32 it means you can't do that 14:56:54 just from (vector alpha-char) it doesn't know what to do 14:57:22 What else does it need? 14:58:10 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:58:27 Umm... I need to catch my bus. I'll be back in an hour. 14:58:28 coerce is not extensible 14:58:34 mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-010-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:42 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:50 (and if it were, it wouldn't look *that* DWIMey) 15:03:30 -!- Cymew [n=user@d193-205-190.home3.cgocable.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:05:32 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:10:36 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:13:27 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:14:09 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2BD50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:01 rdd` [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:16:55 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:04 the first return value of #'jclass-of is always a string in all impl? 15:18:00 was looking at http://code.google.com/p/jvmnotebook/source/browse/trunk/abcl/swing/misc/java_example_helpers.lisp?r=59 15:19:48 dmiles_afk annotated #68556 with "dmiles result of #'jclass-of " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68556#2 15:21:25 dmiles_afk annotated #68556 with "oops (jclass-of *)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68556#3 15:22:22 i guess i am wondering if that is too imcompatable with most lisps 15:22:27 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:57 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-188.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:24:24 echo-are` [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-dbdf7d34c653f2d8] has joined #lisp 15:25:44 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 15:27:05 Ferrari_308_GTS [n=algidus@88-149-209-157.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:29:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-73.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:57 -!- Ferrari_308_GTS [n=algidus@88-149-209-157.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:24 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-32eddb3ed9e988a8] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:33:29 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:33:29 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:33:31 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 15:34:28 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E18C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:40 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1C57C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:08 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:39:29 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:39:37 MHOOO [n=nah@3-055.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:42:30 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-4-251.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:43:11 mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has joined #lisp 15:44:17 any elephant users in? 15:44:48 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-188.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:14 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 15:45:47 hans_ [n=H4ns@p57A0D6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:03 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@3-055.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:06 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 15:46:56 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:47:00 Serva [n=Serva@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:47:13 MHOOO [n=nah@6-067.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:48:24 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:49:57 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:53:01 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:58 Is there a way in SBCL to ask the size(room-like) of some object tree, e.g. a hash table and everything it points to? 15:54:01 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.219.142] has joined #lisp 15:54:25 UnwashedMeme: lichtblau made a tool to do something like that. 15:54:49 a keyword to google for? 15:54:53 http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/dot/ 15:55:29 cool, thanks 15:55:51 wow. Conses are pretty heavy. 15:55:59 they ain't heavy, they're my conses. 15:56:04 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:11 haha 15:56:19 <3 I love them, even if they're a little chunky. Just makes them sexier imo. 15:56:37 sykopomp: how do you propose to store two 64-bit pointers in fewer than 16 bytes? 15:56:58 Xach: with magic, of course. 15:57:10 Do you have a non-joke answer? 15:57:27 no, I wasn't complaining about cons size, or insinuating that they were anything but optimal :) 15:57:37 There's the "implicit CDR" trick for constant lists 15:57:45 just surprised, since I don't know that much about how stuff works. 15:57:46 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:46 Xach: encode their value in varint 15:58:13 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:58:39 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 15:59:16 Xach: each byte encode 128 values, top bit is used to indicate whether another byte needs to be read or not (giving 7 more bits of information), etc. 15:59:32 enigmus: That would certainly make them smaller. 15:59:41 dlowe: server's up and running. I got the basic room login thing working, as well as chatting, emoting and looking ;) 15:59:48 sykopomp: That's a little like saying "Boy, your wife is ugly! But I'm not complaining." 15:59:50 but make the code that uses them much larger. 16:00:36 -!- wolfboy22 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:00:38 probably should be explored in arc first 16:00:42 Xach: you think so? I was saying it more in terms of "oh, I didn't realize they were so big, I should be careful about using conses for large objects, I think.' 16:01:38 it's just nice to know, and I didn't know before. It really wasn't a complaint :( 16:01:46 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.219.142] has left #lisp 16:01:49 -!- matley- [n=matley@83.225.129.141] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:51 yeah, but "so big" compared to what? 16:01:59 a cons is a two-element thing. how else would it work? 16:02:05 :( 16:02:11 what did you think a cons was before you saw the diagram? 16:03:05 smaller? For no particular reason. 16:03:10 ok, fair enough 16:03:23 but now I know (and knowing is half the battle) 16:05:35 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-4-251.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:39 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:07:56 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@0-107.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:11:25 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:46 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:14:23 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:51 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:50 query sykopomp 16:17:53 oops 16:20:28 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0D6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:36 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:21:45 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 16:21:52 -!- antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1279542688.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:22:24 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:15 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:26:54 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@6-067.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:10 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 16:29:34 dlowe: no public stalking! 16:30:06 rsynnott: query is for easy private msging :p 16:30:23 -!- gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:46 MHOOO [n=nah@0-129.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:36:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:13 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:19 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@0-107.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:44:32 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:46:23 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@0-107.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:46:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:52:23 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:54:02 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@0-129.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:59:57 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:17 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:18 I have a long function, and I want to recurse not through the whole function - but only some lines of code. Can I do that? 17:04:42 Yes. 17:05:15 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:05:35 Serva pasted "A* search" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68574 17:06:23 In the function a-star-search, I want to recurse only through cond part.. till the end 17:06:34 by the way, the function is not complete yet 17:07:03 Serva: LABELS does what you want? 17:07:05 add an IF somewhere. 17:07:09 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:11 ah, better yet. :) 17:07:26 i'll google labels now 17:07:35 don't use google 17:07:37 clhs LABELS 17:07:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 17:07:45 you should look these up in CLHS 17:07:49 or http://l1sp.org/cl/labels 17:07:53 (easeir to remember) 17:08:24 funny comments. :) 17:11:40 looks like exactly what I need, tks 17:13:11 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:15:34 vixey, could you elaborate on the syntax 17:15:43 of what? 17:15:50 labels 17:15:53 no 17:16:28 Serva, have you read practical common lisp? 17:16:51 no, I have not. 17:17:03 minion, tell Serva about that-dead-sexy-book 17:17:05 Serva: please see that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:17:07 I think it talks about labels. 17:17:20 alright, i'll have a look 17:17:32 anyone using cl-irc? 17:17:38 http://l1sp.org/pcl/labels 17:17:38 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-214.kosnet.ru] has quit ["L . V ."] 17:17:42 http://l1sp.org/cl/labels 17:18:02 dlowe: not me 17:18:07 it's buggy that's why 17:18:14 vixey: how so? 17:20:12 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:20:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:21:47 dlowe: it's used in beirc 17:22:14 yes, the book does talk about labels - in a more approachable way for a novice 17:22:38 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:50 MHOOO [n=nah@6-185.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:24:35 hmmm, having a weird problem with sbcl; my code was compiling fine a minute ago, i added a defvar global at the top of the file, and now i'm getting loads of "there is no class named " errors 17:24:54 even though those classes are defined in the same file i'm compiling 17:25:06 paste your code 17:25:40 malune: what name does the defvar use? 17:26:09 Xach: *plane* 17:26:17 Xach: and *char* 17:26:38 *Xach* seconds the paste request 17:26:47 *michaelw* bets on package issues 17:26:56 michaelw: me too 17:27:06 stassats: you want me to paste the entire 700 lines of code? 17:27:28 malune: it would be good if you could reduce them to something that's smaller & testable (: 17:27:32 malune: Make sure that the first form in the file is a (in-package ...) form, not your defvar form. 17:27:36 malune: a simplified test would be rockin' 17:28:14 malune: Also, restart your inferior Lisp. 17:29:52 is *object* a bad name to use? :) 17:29:56 malune: no. 17:30:23 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:30:28 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:26 wow this really is odd 17:31:56 just add one to make it even 17:32:00 could something have happened to my .fasls? 17:34:21 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:28 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:52 btw, theres no obvious code to paste, i compiled this same code 5 minutes ago (i made sure i undid all recent changes) 17:35:04 the only difference is that the file has more lines 17:35:28 (comments) 17:36:03 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:36:30 #lisp is bad at telepathy 17:36:31 fickle state 17:37:02 gahh 17:37:04 cliki sucks. 17:37:16 argh found the problem 17:37:30 if you "GET /somepackage?download", it does a redirect to the ultimate url, if "somepackage" is asdf-installable. 17:37:46 But if you "HEAD /somepackage?download", it instead gives back a 200 response. 17:37:50 Xach: indeed 17:37:51 haha 17:38:08 boo on you, cliki. 17:38:10 noob mistake, i created a method a la (defmethod foo ((o obj0) arg (o obj1)) ...) 17:38:11 yep 17:38:51 malune: I don't think I see the problem >_> 17:39:05 sykopomp: it's right before your OOs 17:40:07 ah, yes 17:40:14 antifuchs: not news, then? 17:40:55 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@0-107.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:41:21 grumble. I'd like to file a complaint. 17:41:46 get in line 17:41:46 (a) standard method combination doesn't support :most-specific-last. 17:42:26 (b) the short-form of define-method-combination doesn't let you use next-method-p or call-next-method in a primary method body. 17:42:56 Good evening. 17:43:22 beach: evenin' 17:43:43 what did I miss? 17:44:25 sykopomp: declared a method which used classes before classes existed :) 17:44:26 AFAICT, this means I have to use a long form of D-M-C to get a gf with one method that calls a more specific method if one exists, and does nothing otherwise. 17:44:31 beach: Do you teach the differences between terms like static, strong, dynamic typing etc? 17:45:04 tcr: I do, yes. 17:45:21 beach: I'd be interested in the definitions you teach; are they available in English? 17:45:53 tcr: I am sure they are, but I don't cite a particular source. I can give them to you here if you like. 17:47:41 beach: I'd like if you could take the 15 minutes, and perhaps mail me your version of it. (Or perhaps post them to paste.lisp.org, so others can chime in with comments.) 17:47:51 tcr: I am also perfectly honest about it with my students, and admit that these terms were invented for political reasons, because everyone wants to be strong and dynamic, and nobody wants to be weak and static. 17:48:13 tcr: OK, hold on. I might have them on slides somewhere. 17:48:32 beach: eh? ISTM that everybody wants to be strong and static. 17:49:04 tcr: here's my take: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/log/programming/types 17:49:09 static/dynamic is unambiguous, but strong/weak is vague 17:49:28 kreuter: have you ever heard a president of a company say "I am very proud of this very static company, with staff without any dynamic aspects to them at all"? 17:49:55 well, I'm talking about people who write about languages. 17:50:00 kreuter: you are already too used to these terms in the context of programming langauges. 17:50:09 I guess so. 17:50:11 kreuter: I am talking about how these terms were invented. 17:50:21 *kreuter* should probably be carted off to the glue factory. 17:50:33 I wouldn't go that far. 17:51:35 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177145079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:13 tcr: pages 112-126 of http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/spm.pdf 17:53:31 IIRC it was Cardelli who popularized "strong typing" to mean what I call "static typing". 17:53:37 kreuter: are you sure about (b)? 17:53:51 beach: who wouldn't want strong, healthy typing? 17:54:05 Xach: hygienic typing. 17:54:22 Xach: Oh, and pure. 17:54:23 Krystof: see CLHS 7.6.6.4 17:54:32 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 17:55:15 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:55:19 ah, in primaries 17:55:47 well, no, because the short-form calls _all_ primary methods and accumulates all the results according to your function 17:55:49 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 17:55:58 beach: Your differentiation between static and dynamic languages seems mostly about implementation issue; for example, the LispMs provided incremental development for C, too. 17:56:23 kreuter: if you want a crib, in asdf there's a slight variant on standard method combination 17:56:41 tcr: I don't think you can go very far with that without violating the semantics of the langauge. 17:57:01 tcr: for instance: int x; /* oops */ float x; 17:57:32 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:53 Krystof: thanks. for this problem, I think I can revert to standard method combination, a default primary method that returns a distinguished value, and an :around method that checks if call-next-method returned the distinguished value. 17:58:02 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has left #lisp 17:58:20 I am having implementation problems with my search algorithm. I'll explain the problem, if anyone has time to listen. 17:58:39 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:58:52 tcr: I saw some great research on interactive Pascal in the 70s (by some people of the Interlisp community then), but they had to define or redefine all kinds of behavior of the language. 17:59:05 beach: I don't see how that's a violation (I don't think the C standard says anything about redefinition, so it's entirely implementation-defined behaviour.) 17:59:20 tcr: really? 17:59:44 (I'm a C dilettante.) 18:00:37 tcr: so it would be OK for a C compiler to accept this: int bla(int y) { int x = 10; float x; ...}? 18:00:43 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 18:01:18 I think I misunderstood your example. I thought it tried to illustrate changing the type of a global variable. 18:01:18 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@6-185.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:01:26 at the toplevel 18:01:34 tcr: global or local, what's the difference? 18:01:57 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:58 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a0d3e3f6f50ab8c1] has joined #lisp 18:02:34 (I mean, I know the difference between a global and a local variable, I just didn't see how relevant it would be.) 18:02:41 I'd guess that (let ((a 4)) (declare (type integer a)) (declare (type float a)) a) results in undefined behaviour, even in Lisp which you say is a dynamic language. 18:02:56 fair enough. 18:03:27 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 18:03:38 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-92-24.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 18:03:47 but the things aren't really comparable because you don't have to declare the type in Lisp. 18:04:01 tcr: I think it's the wrong way to think about types 18:04:12 "it"? 18:04:35 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-114-149.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 beach: Redefinition makes only sense for toplevel forms, doesn't it? 18:05:02 tcr: you might be right. I haven't thought about it. 18:06:08 tcr: but I am pretty sure I can find an example of defining (say) a struct with some fields, allocating an instance of it and then redefining the type to have another field. What happens to the existing instance? 18:06:28 Thinking about a protocol for frobbing closures may be interesting 18:06:52 tcr: I am pretty sure that is not defined in the C standard, because in a static language that situation doesn not ever occur. 18:07:08 It's not even defined by ANSI CL. 18:07:33 it is for instance of standard class. 18:07:47 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:16 My gripe is that what you attest as a property of a language is more a property of the culture around the language. (Of course, that's where KMP's ultimate party essay comes in.) 18:08:30 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:09:05 tcr: I am sorry, but I don't agree. I am sure I can find tons of examples in the C standard that make it essentially impossible to consider it a dynamic language. 18:10:04 tcr: You are taking what I say to literally. You are technically right about the struct stuff, but since C doesn't have CLOS standard-class, I have no way of modifying the definition of a data type after having created instances of it, which makes the development method for dynamic languages impossible to use. 18:10:49 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:35 tcr: I will grant you though, that there are probably also many cases of undefined behavior in the standard, that it will suffise to define in order to get part of the way. 18:13:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B3D.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:13:38 dinner, I'll be back later. 18:14:38 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:16:43 mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has joined #lisp 18:17:37 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-085-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:55 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:11 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABDCA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:31 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:59 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has joined #lisp 18:24:43 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has left #lisp 18:27:55 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:13 milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has joined #lisp 18:31:53 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 18:32:36 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:55 is http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/darcs/cffi/ maintained? the old cffi release that i used until today does not play nice with current sbcl, so i need to upgrade cffi. 18:35:27 H4ns: yes 18:35:46 S11001001: thanks! 18:36:49 SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:02 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:07 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:40:22 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:40:43 finally opengl freetype woo :) 18:40:51 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:54 -!- mimies [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:41:57 I possibly cant push all the elements from a list, into another list at one go, can I? 18:42:16 you can't push into a list. 18:42:37 (push 'a '(1 2 3)) ...? 18:42:39 NIL is unpushable. 18:42:51 there are no nils 18:43:00 the form you just posted will get you undefined consequences 18:43:44 you can construct a new list whose elements are those of some existing lists with APPEND or NONC. 18:44:08 kreuter: (let ((lst '(1 2 3))) (push 'a lst)) 18:44:37 malune: that doesn't modify the list; it changes the value of LST. 18:44:42 benny` [n=benny@i577A128C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:12 malune: err, lst being a symbol pointing to a list 18:45:17 NONC? 18:45:20 NCONC? 18:45:24 oops, NCONC 18:45:28 kreuter, even 18:45:31 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:45:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:45:39 *malune* has had no sleep in 24hrs 18:45:48 my lisp-fu may be weaker than a monkey, but I had never seen that 18:46:29 its the destructive list append no? 18:47:08 sbcl says yes 18:47:51 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has quit [] 18:49:20 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:51:13 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:51:40 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:41 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:39 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:59:06 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABDCA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:59:21 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABDCA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:26 I have to remove common elements from two lists, based on some factor. The approach I have compares each element from one list, to every element in another, requires n^2 operations. 19:00:50 in my problem, n could easily reach to 100+ 19:01:47 Serva: maybe lists are not the most suitable data structure for your problem. 19:02:02 -!- Jarvellis is now known as JHVH 19:03:02 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:03:03 I am using defstruct, if that can help me 19:04:00 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:03 Serva: reading a good book on common lisp and maybe one on data structures can help you. 19:04:09 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-65-68.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:04:21 Serva: do you have ANY Lisp books in dead-tree format? 19:04:29 all of them, really 19:04:31 additionally, CL has a function, REMOVE-DUPLICATES, which, well, removes duplicates from a sequence. 19:04:38 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.2] has joined #lisp 19:04:50 can i have a :key in that remove-dupl. function 19:04:53 let me check 19:04:57 and some implementations use an intermediate hash-table to reduce the order of complexity, when possible. 19:05:26 Serva: is this for an educational assignment? 19:05:38 for the 10000000th time, yes 19:06:09 (...) 19:06:23 I dont know how does that matter, if you're helping a student or a professional? 19:07:09 Serva: generally, people who do lisp because they like it are more welcome here than those which have been forced to use lisp by their teachers, but have no own interest and/or no talent 19:08:12 professional is getting paid for *his* skills, not the ones he gets from places like this. same is the case for students, they are graded according to *their* skills. 19:08:23 Logically, we should not be helping anyone at all. 19:08:29 there's a kind of talent/verbosity tolerance envelope 19:08:30 Ideally, rather 19:09:25 nonsense 19:09:34 or sense in a kind of Randroid worldview 19:09:36 Serva: just read paip or pcl or sicp or ansi common lisp back to back. that will really help you more than forcing yourself through the task by asking uneducated questions here. 19:10:00 thanks, H4ns 19:10:12 Serva: any time. 19:10:23 we help people if the estimated net gain from helping them is greater than the cost of providing that help. 19:10:52 Krystof: aha! 19:10:56 the gain from lisp taking over some niche (say, airline middleware) is probably greater from helping some snotty student get a meaningless qualification based on insufficient knowledge 19:11:30 Krystof: i am more under the impression that we are after every poor soul if they expose at least _some_ talent or _some_ devoteness :) 19:11:40 helping some student gain real understanding is a huge net win 19:11:45 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has joined #lisp 19:11:49 helping some student pass a pointless exercise is a huge net loss 19:12:15 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-201-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:15 and this comes from a bona fide academic, no less! 19:12:27 We're assuming the student is neither female nor hot. 19:12:56 Nor grateful. 19:13:02 bob_f: true enough. a female name gives you five extra minutes of support 19:13:08 Serva: *hint* *hint* 19:13:10 the least i could provide to this channel, is another topic for discussion. well, i am happy. 19:13:23 hm. there is still a problem with slime/sbcl on this machine. after some time the connection is broken and i can not re-istablish it. what can cause this? 19:13:34 There are no girls on IRC. We know this to be true. 19:13:34 *H4ns* waits for the sbcl compile to finish 19:13:44 *Xach* wonders how many italians named Andrea got misguided help on english-speaking IRC 19:14:18 *bob_f* flutters her eyelids at Xach. 19:14:57 Anyway, home time, bye bye. 19:15:08 you know, I'm glad none of my feminist computing friends are reading this 19:15:24 of course they aren't since this is on irc! 19:15:41 *rsynnott* has always been vaguely offended by the common woman-programmer stereotype 19:15:54 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@93-138-29-243.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:06 rsynnott: which is? 19:17:24 what can i check in order to get a hint what causes the slime-connection-breaks? 19:18:04 trebor_home: did you look at the *slime-events* buffer? 19:18:05 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 19:18:40 trebor_home: and the *inferior-lisp* buffer, while you are there? 19:19:20 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 19:19:36 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has quit [] 19:19:38 ok, michaelw i will do so. i'll restart slime to see what happens in those buffers. 19:19:55 *Xach* arghs as he runs into more than one site that, rather than providing a 404, gives a 302 redirect to a 200 response that has a friendly html page that says "not found" 19:20:25 Xach: welcome to the internets, you're late :) 19:20:49 404 just isn't sexy or web2.0 compliant 19:21:26 michaelw: clearly a new lisp-based solution is needed 19:21:48 sboyette: well, you can deliver a body with a 404, it's just that some browser ruined the party for everybody by not showing it (was it IE?) 19:22:11 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.153] has joined #lisp 19:22:33 michaelw, think so. 19:23:15 michaelw: now that the connection is broken again, what am i looking for in *slime-events*? 19:24:20 the last messages in *s-e* are (:ping 2 23) (:emacs-pont 2 23) (:write-string ....) 19:25:33 lispm [n=joswig@f054054186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:25:34 in *i-l*: ;; connection to emacs lost;; conition timeout occured. ;; type: timeout;; encoding nil style :spawn dedicated: nil 19:25:58 anekos [n=anekos@pl432.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:26:29 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has joined #lisp 19:29:29 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has quit [Client Quit] 19:29:42 Xach: what are you using to generate moviecharts? cl-gd? 19:30:27 vecto, I see 19:31:41 antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1279542688.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:32:12 badlambda [n=badlambd@200-193-108-177.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:32:18 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 19:32:50 -!- ehu` [i=3ed68bef@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-15002d45e3ed18a0] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:33:33 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:16 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:28 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:37:34 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:23 If anyone is going to Nashville next week, I just put up an invitation to a gathering on http://ccl.clozure.com/blog/ 19:39:10 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-88.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:39:20 treboer_home pasted "slime looses connection: *inferior-buffer*" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68580 19:41:58 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:43:25 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@166.pool85-54-98.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:43 hello 19:44:35 trebor_home annotated #68580 with "slime looses connection slime-events-buffer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68580#1 19:45:14 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-21-84.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:45:37 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:45:42 willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:45:46 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:52 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:45:57 does someone have an idea what causes the connection-timeouts? i do use the same sources on other machines without problems. 19:46:02 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 19:49:32 trebor_home: your slime connection needs tightening? 19:50:01 drewc: yes, sort of. do you have an idea? 19:50:49 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:10 (this kind of problem only occurs on this machine) 19:51:22 -!- mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-010-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 19:51:42 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2BD50.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:52:34 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:52:48 trebor_home: no idea .. i might start blaming emacs ... are you using cvs emacs on all the machines? 19:53:52 anyone here familiar with cl-vectors? 19:53:59 demism [n=DM@adsl-074-173-007-018.sip.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:13 vy [n=user@88.230.118.95] has joined #lisp 19:54:29 drewc: on some. i could check out and compile another emacs. 19:54:33 fusss: I'm. 19:54:52 I just downloaded 1.3 and asdf'ed into clisp/win32 19:54:59 trebor_home: that's the first thing i'd try. 19:55:26 Hi! I have asked a question about why (coerce "1" 'alpha-string) doesn't sign an error where related special types are defined as (deftype alpha-char () '(satisfies alpha-char-p)) and (deftype alpha-string () '(vector alpha-char)). Did I miss any replies? 19:56:03 the tutorial says USE :CL-AA-MISC and :CL-VECTORS to start drawing, but those packages don't show up in LIST-ALL-PACKAGES. However, they show up with a -SYSTEM suffix 19:56:26 the *-SYSTEM versions don't export, or even have, the symbols used in the tutorial 19:56:31 clhs alpha-char 19:56:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for alpha-char. 19:56:34 argh 19:56:36 clhs coerce 19:56:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 19:56:40 fusss: usually, the -system suffix denotes the package in which the asdf system is defined. 19:56:42 vy: read that 19:57:03 grep -in defpackage cl-vectors/*.lisp returns funnly named packages (i.e. #:net.tuxee.*, etc.) 19:57:26 fusss: that's my domain name, to make sure the name are unique. But they're aliased anyway. 19:57:38 fusss: nicknames perhaps? 19:57:59 fusss: like drewc says, the -system packages are not the ones to uses, but are those used for asdf. 19:58:09 chandler: You mean this line: "If the result-type is a recognizable subtype of vector, and the object is a sequence, then the result is a vector that has the _same_elements_ as object."? 19:58:21 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:44 vy: No. 19:58:58 fusss: also, a system does not relate necessary to a package. 19:59:19 vy: "If object is already of type result-type, the object itself is returned, regardless of whether it would have been possible in general to coerce an object of some other type to result-type." 19:59:23 fusss: when using the 3 packages described in the package, you're importing various things, but not necessary 3 differents packages. 19:59:39 fusss: I mean, described in the tutorial. (sorry for poor english) 20:00:08 the main importation is (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :cl-vectors), which worked the first time and now returns "0 errors, 0 warnings" 20:00:18 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:00:34 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:01:16 fusss: what is the problem exactly? The tutorial contains errors? 20:01:29 vy: er, actually. I misread your question. 20:01:41 vy: The relevant part is "If result-type is a specialized type, the result has an actual array element type that is the result of upgrading the element type part of that specialized type." 20:01:50 -!- demism [n=DM@adsl-074-173-007-018.sip.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 20:02:09 FIXED! 20:02:09 vy: Because the upgraded array element type of ALPHA-CHAR is T, it coerces it to a SIMPLE-VECTOR of length 1 20:02:33 I needed to tell CLISP to load the asdf system properly 20:03:04 cods: are you the author of the package? :-) 20:03:24 fusss: yes. 20:03:25 chandler: So this is also the reason (deftype alpha-char () '(and character (satisfies alpha-char-p))) doesn't work too? 20:03:45 fusss: for a more high level approach, you can use vecto (made by Xach) which use cl-vectors internally. 20:03:46 hey, good to have you around. that's why I love #lisp :-) 20:04:07 yeah, i just discovered that earlier 20:04:20 vy: what do you mean by "doesn't work"? 20:05:00 vy: generally, SATISFIES types are useless, unless you know you need one 20:05:58 chandler: Let me ask in this way: How can I create a type and force CL to not ignore SATISFIES part of the related type? 20:06:28 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:06:43 Good evening (once again). 20:06:48 vy: it does not ignore it in calls to TYPEP. Anything dealing with vectors is subject to the rules about upgraded array element types. 20:07:15 vy: I don't even know what you're trying to accomplish with this. How will COERCE manage to make something which is not ALPHA-CHAR-P into something which is? 20:07:31 Why are you expecting it to do so, and what is the value of doing this rather than writing a function to do it? 20:07:37 Good evening beach. 20:07:47 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Rebooting :-)"] 20:08:09 vy: It seems like you are doing something which you ought not to be doing, and then wondering how to make it work. 20:09:41 chandler: I'm trying to write some sort of parser. Instead of manually validating inputs everytime, I planned to create appropriate types and let CL do the checking for me. 20:09:56 chandler: are you still using macs a lot? 20:10:39 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:50 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:10:56 salex: Yes, I'm still using a Mac (currently a MacBook Pro 2.4GHz) 20:10:58 chandler: BTW, I don't expect COERCE to transform something which is not ALPHA-CHAR-P, but signal an error. 20:11:22 vy: That is not what it does, though. See the wording about upgraded array element types. 20:11:30 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has quit [" Unicode should totally start doing html tags."] 20:12:06 vy: You can still have CL "check" the type by using CHECK-TYPE or TYPEP, but it is equivalent to doing the work yourself. 20:13:09 chandler: Yep, that's the thing I was trying to avoid. Anyways, thanks so much. I learnt -- I hope -- much today and found so many pointers to dig in. 20:14:43 -!- vy [n=user@88.230.118.95] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:51 i downloaded emacs22.3 from gnu.org and compiled it successfully, but slime lost connection again. how can i get the reason for this? 20:17:59 i get crazy. i am using emacs/slime/sbcl on 5 machines, but on this one it does not work. 20:19:22 (this is my personal laptop) 20:19:51 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:21:20 same sbcl? 20:21:40 trebor_home: and how about locale/charset settings? 20:21:43 fusss: i used vecto 20:22:00 yeah i saw 20:22:51 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 20:22:56 drewc: same sbcl. what should i check regarding locale/charset settings (what & where)? 20:22:57 cods: (asdf:run-shell-command "~S ~S" external-viewer temp-filename) <-- this is broken on CLISP/win32, perhaps trivial-shell would be better? 20:23:13 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:37 trebor_home: typing 'locale 20:23:39 I bound *external-viewer* to "mspaint" and the tmp directory to C:/tmp 20:23:52 sorry .. 'locale' at the shell prompt 20:23:53 fusss: probably. It was a hack to display image in a very simple way. 20:24:16 trebor_home: also, does the same thing happen when you start sbcl from outside of emacs, then connect to a swank server? 20:24:26 fusss: but, it is up to the user to figure that (since cl-vectors does only low level stuff anyway.) 20:24:36 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:24:41 ok 20:24:45 fusss: vecto is a better choice for these tasks 20:25:40 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:25:46 I just need something to prototype a trivial drawing api for flash 20:26:18 drewc: how do i start sbcl from outside of emacs and connect to a swank server 20:26:20 if I can get static images with alpha channel I'm sweet 20:26:33 fusss: cl-vectors knows nothing about colors 20:26:35 stassats [n=stassats@ppp89-110-51-225.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:26:46 fusss: vecto knows about 8 bit rgba PNGs. 20:26:54 8 bits per channel, that is. 20:27:02 trebor_home: type 'sbcl' at a shell prompt, push the location of slime into your asdf:*cnetral-registry*, (require :swank) and (swank:create-server) 20:27:03 that would be sweet man 20:27:11 trebor_home: then in emacs M-x slime-connect 20:27:19 I need the alpha channel to debug layout management and super-imposition 20:27:59 newer flashes support nice things that vecto doesn't, like blurs and fancy gradients 20:28:05 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 20:28:14 trebor_home annotated #68580 with "slime looses connection locale" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68580#2 20:28:33 *Xach* wrote zpb-ttf in order to support text in flash 20:28:52 slashdot: adobe released flashplayer 10, ALSO for Linux ^_^ 20:28:58 trebor_home: 'loses' 20:29:09 oh, the title is already set. heh. 20:29:11 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-10-63.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:29:45 hi drewc 20:29:52 elurin [n=user@88.224.106.157] has joined #lisp 20:30:06 trebor_home: you have your net coding system as "iso-latin-1-unix", but your SBCL is probably using utf8 20:30:24 hey Xach, whats new n exciting? 20:30:27 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:51 chandler: ah, ok. maybe you have an idea on this. emacs doesn't set path if you run it from finder. somehow i got it in the state where if i run "open foo.lisp" in a terminal, evironment is fine 20:30:54 drewc: the web is not always reliable or sanely structured, film at 11 :( 20:31:08 but if I run emacs then open foo.lisp, it can't find sbcl 20:31:11 any ideas? 20:32:06 btw, i'm setting PATH in .emacs, also hard coded the path to sbcl. it's strange 20:32:12 Xach: ah yes... good ol web. 20:32:16 drewc: where did you see that i have my net coding system as "iso-latin-1-unix"? 20:32:54 (read-from-string "swank:start-server") "/tmp/slime.3993" :coding-system "iso-latin-1-unix")) 20:33:11 -!- badlambda [n=badlambd@200-193-108-177.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:33:31 drewc: hey, you like messing around with cliki or what? 20:33:38 drewc: HEAD is woky 20:33:40 wonky, rather 20:33:52 *lnostdal* notes-to-self: parse-declarations is very very handy .. 20:33:58 Xach: not recently.... what's wonky? 20:34:14 ..maybe it should be part of a CDR or something.. :) 20:34:29 drewc: so this is a misconfiguration of emacs? 20:35:02 SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:33 drewc: HEAD vs. GET on /foo?download give very different results 20:35:38 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:48 trebor_home: you can setf the net-coding-system.. 20:35:57 minion: tel trebor_home about SLIME tips 20:35:59 you speak nonsense 20:36:07 minion: tell trebor_home about SLIME tips 20:36:08 trebor_home: please look at SLIME tips: This page is for collecting tips for avoiding problems with and making the best use of SLIME, the Emacs-based Lisp development environment Connecting automatically: Making slime connect to your lisp automatically when you open a lisp file. http://www.cliki.net/SLIME%20tips 20:36:10 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 20:36:23 salex: I don't know why "open foo.lisp" sets the path. I've always hardcoded the full path to SBCL in my .emacs, but you could use launchctl to affect PATH for all executables. 20:36:48 /usr/local/bin is not in PATH by default. /etc/profile puts it in PATH, but /etc/profile is not sourced for anything but terminal login sessions 20:36:51 trebor_home: there are some pointers at the bottom there. might not actually be the problem, but it's a start :) 20:37:43 badlambda [n=badlambd@200-193-108-177.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:39:46 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:42:44 ths [n=ths@X46bf.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:52 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 20:43:35 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 20:45:43 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 20:46:28 -!- antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1279542688.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:46:57 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:48:35 chandler: no, it's worse than that. i'm hardcoding sbcl *and* manually setting the path in .emacs, which used to work, but now i've somehow got the system in a state where something different happens when it's launched from finder 20:48:43 it also affectys my latex setup 20:48:54 just wondered if you had any ideas 20:49:47 i realize the /etc/profile vs finder stuff, which is why i'm settin gthe path in .emacs (not for sbcl actualy, for bibtex and pdflatex) 20:49:56 I guess I'm not understanding your description of what differs 20:50:17 all that differes is I run it directly from dock or finder 20:50:32 somehow .emacs setting son't seem to be helping 20:50:35 I meant in results. How does the value of PATH differ - or does it look the same, but fail to work in one case? 20:50:47 i added (set-language-environment "UTF-8") (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) into my .emacs, restarted emacs&slime but still i get my connection broken. WTF can i do to fix this? 20:51:20 chandler: looks the same, but fails to work 20:51:40 i'm not near the machine, so i can't test anything at the moment..... 20:51:45 and if you do a M-x shell and just run "echo $PATH" 20:51:46 ah, OK 20:52:18 mostly wondered if you knew of some mac wierdness that might have caused this, is all 20:52:34 (i.e., you had run into the same thing at some point) 20:52:48 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:52:50 Not to the best of my recall. 20:52:52 trebor_home: have you tried the ol 'update sbcl slime emacs, delete all fasls and recompile the world' bit :) 20:53:17 oh, and press Ctrl-Alt-Delete a few times for good measure 20:53:18 chandler: k. if i can pin it down more specifically, i'll ask if 20:53:21 if that fails, find a rubber chicken 20:53:33 heh 20:53:34 he 20:53:35 h 20:54:04 salex you should set paths in ~/.profile 20:54:23 i updated slime & emacs but not sbcl. what fasl files should i delete? 20:54:32 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 20:55:32 salex also i think if you run emacs from finder it doesnt pick up sbcl_home 20:55:50 so you need to call sbcl with --core and full path to sbcl.core 20:55:54 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a0d3e3f6f50ab8c1] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:56:11 -!- badlambda [n=badlambd@200-193-108-177.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:57:46 badlambda [n=badlambd@200-193-108-177.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:57:52 trebor_home: .slime/fasl is a good start. trying a brand new sbcl might help. other than that, it's really time for a dead chicken. 20:57:56 -!- younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 20:58:37 invstigating the stack frames might point you in the right direction if you can figure out where it's hanging. 20:59:16 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0C940.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:38 trebor_home: with lots of M-. , trace and break statements, and whatever other debugging techniques you prefer, it might even be fun! 21:00:22 debugging is never fun ;p 21:01:55 Xach: well done mi amigo; vecto is dead sexy :-) 21:02:32 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:03:52 Xach: cliki is teh suck! 21:06:17 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:06:30 Xach: i've got a hunchentoot port of cliki that i plan on finishing up and pushing to the server real soon now. 21:06:31 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:08:16 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:55 hans___ [n=H4ns@p57A0C940.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:00 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:10:32 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:10:34 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 21:12:21 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46F41.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:24 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9b5/2008043010]"] 21:15:12 -!- hans_ [n=H4ns@p57A0D6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:52 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:32 milos_ [n=milos@92.36.143.152] has joined #lisp 21:18:29 fusss: glad you like it 21:18:31 drewc: rock 21:19:21 miles egan's design has not aged all that well 21:19:30 though it's better in many ways from raw cliki 21:20:25 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-88.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:20:49 i have big plans for cliki/cl-net in the oncoming months. suggestions welcome. 21:21:48 I suggest a non-threaded web server :-) 21:22:13 -!- badlambda [n=badlambd@200-193-108-177.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit ["sleeping"] 21:26:29 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45CE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:32 chandler: heh ... i see me getting an 'i told you so' in your not so distant future :) 21:27:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:02 -!- away-mode is now known as spiderbyte 21:32:25 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:32:28 xristos: thanks for the thought but no. this setup was working before, and I'm not relying on SBCL_HOME. 21:33:14 anway, afk. 21:33:14 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:33:16 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:42 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:35:26 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:35:32 -!- FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:36:33 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 21:38:35 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.153] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:38:40 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 21:38:43 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dfaa2b9bca875b3c] has joined #lisp 21:38:47 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:39:52 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:20 badlambda [n=badlambd@200-193-108-177.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:44:47 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:40 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 21:49:46 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:05 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.251.140] has joined #lisp 21:54:54 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:56:32 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-3-93-192.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:03 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 21:57:30 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-126.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:57:32 oh man, i do not what to do anymore. i updated emacs & slime & sbcl. i deleted .slime (and therefore all fasl files). i added (set-language-environment "UTF-8") (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) to emacs. and still only on this machine i get broken swank/slime connections. does anyone have an idea what i can do? 21:57:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:39 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:57:50 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:01:02 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:02:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:02:17 trebor_home: time to post the the slime mailing list i think. 22:03:18 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:03 -!- Soul_man [n=knute@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:59 trebor_home: revert to your old versions :) 22:06:18 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-92-24.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:07:14 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:08:14 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-201-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:58 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:24 -!- badlambda [n=badlambd@200-193-108-177.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit ["sleeping"] 22:11:48 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:12:40 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has joined #lisp 22:13:55 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:15:00 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-15-221.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:15 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:43 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:46 milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has joined #lisp 22:20:19 bah! crash after-xc.core: no size function for object at 0x10464ccc (widetag 0xcc) 22:25:31 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:41 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:31:16 -!- milos_ [n=milos@92.36.143.152] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:33:12 and it happened again. looks like SBCL isn't building on OSX atm. 22:34:52 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-085-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:53 m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:36:57 If I'd install sbcl in my home-directory, would I have to look out for anything really different than for a system-wide install. It's for a demo :) 22:37:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:57 m4dnificent: you probably need to adjust SBCL_HOME environment variable 22:40:28 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:18 stassats: where can I adjust that? (doesn't seem to be in the shell here) 22:41:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 22:42:36 m4dnificent: set it to the place where sbcl is installed 22:42:38 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:46 stassats: thanks 22:44:16 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 22:46:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:57 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:49:20 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:55:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:56:42 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:18 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:57:45 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:58:30 1.0.21.12 works. that's good. 22:58:34 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:48 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26133.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:26 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:51 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:01 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:03:31 hello 23:03:35 i have this code here from AIMA 23:03:37 (defun random-tsp-map (&key (n-cities 6)) 23:03:37 (random-route-map :n-cities n-cities :min-roads (- n-cities 1) 23:03:37 :max-roads (- n-cities 1))) 23:03:53 how do i go about emulating the structure this returns 23:03:56 from data i already have 23:04:02 :O 23:04:13 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 23:04:26 any help would be massively appreciated 23:04:47 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 23:04:57 where random-route-map is defined as... 23:05:19 fuck this is long 23:05:35 http://hpaste.org/11177 23:06:22 i'm in a little over my head 23:06:45 twxfn: How are you learning lisp? 23:06:57 trial and error :D 23:07:03 twxfn: please don't paste code in the channel! use lisppaste. 23:07:08 Nobody here is going to help you with that. 23:07:10 lisppaste: url? 23:07:10 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 23:07:18 drewc: i used hpaste 23:07:19 thanks 23:07:22 twxfn: did you check out pcl?... 23:07:25 You should read a book. 23:07:32 this is for an assignment, honestly 23:07:38 We know. 23:07:39 :| 23:07:44 you don't say :) 23:07:49 don't get all uppity on me :( 23:08:03 twxfn: you want us to do your homework... 23:08:06 no 23:08:10 i want help doing my homework 23:08:18 Talk to your instructor. 23:08:25 he doesn't really speak english 23:09:04 twxfn: The best thing you could do is pick up a good book on Lisp. 23:09:11 they are outsourcing lisp ai classes now? 23:09:15 twxfn: do you have much programming experience? 23:09:17 but how he does instruct you? 23:09:24 stassats: poorly 23:09:29 i have a good bit of programming experience 23:09:35 6 years or so 23:09:40 minion: tell twxfn about PCL 23:09:42 twxfn: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:09:52 i know 23:09:56 there are tons of books 23:09:57 twxfn: PCL is your best bet. 23:09:59 that's not the problem 23:10:06 twxfn: what's the problem, then? 23:10:14 the problem is that i just need 23:10:19 one simple instruction on how to emulate this structure 23:10:38 your problem is that you want to know the solution to a problem, not how to solve it. 23:10:40 :) 23:10:43 no 23:10:44 believe me 23:10:46 it's not 23:11:02 I'm gonna go study -.- 23:11:49 you know how you can go php.net/function/strripos or whatever 23:11:55 are there any good docs for lisp like that 23:11:58 well-organized :O 23:12:14 the hyperspec 23:12:23 what a nightmare 23:12:29 clhs position 23:12:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm 23:12:41 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:43 not for the strripos function itself 23:12:46 just in general 23:12:48 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:12:54 twxfn: clhs 23:12:56 yeah, i'm in general 23:12:58 use the hyperspec 23:13:06 will do 23:13:24 *twxfn* swears at you all under his breath 23:13:26 there's plenty of ways to find what you need. By topic, by symbol, etc. 23:13:30 O:D 23:13:32 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:14:01 minion: advice for twxfn 23:14:01 twxfn: #11938: If you have `some weird error', the problem is probably with your frobnitzer. 23:14:15 my frob is mobier than yours 23:14:20 let's fight about it 23:15:11 mobier? sorry... i'm not really part of the lisp mafia. 23:16:37 and .15 is broken. ok, somewhere between .12 and .15. 23:18:20 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-3-93-192.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:20:53 *twxfn* sings, ./` i think your train is leaving ./ 23:21:16 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-75-7-172-35.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:20 twxfn: Go away. 23:21:28 you go away 23:21:33 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 23:21:36 it's a free node 23:21:38 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*n=ushdf@*.syr.edu 23:21:39 (incf Xach) 23:21:43 -!- Xach [n=xach@207.5.178.18] has been kicked from #lisp 23:21:53 ;; duh 23:22:41 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.106.157] has quit [Success] 23:27:20 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 23:35:16 rwbarton [n=rwbarton@pool-96-237-243-95.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:24 persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:25 Evenin' folks. 23:37:00 Is there a better way to create lists than (nconc (list (foo)) (list (bar))) in order to ignore NILs? 23:37:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:38:06 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:38:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:39:32 (remove nil list) ? 23:39:41 persi: yes, what is it you are trying to do? 23:39:48 Ahem. Should be (nconc (list 1 2 3) (foo)). In order to ignore foo if nil. Would prefer `(1 2 3 ,foo) style but dont know if that is safe. 23:40:10 -!- eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:11 Safe being, not a new list. 23:40:33 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:34 drewc: construct new lists but ignore nil. 23:40:57 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:41:19 (list* 1 2 3 nil) ? 23:41:24 sorry. `(1 2 3 ,@foo) 23:41:40 persi: right, i got that, but how and why? 23:41:42 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:51 stassats: there could be many foos. (nconc (list 1 2 3) (foo) nil (bar) (list 3 4 5)) 23:42:36 drews: This is the real patterh: (nconc (list 1 2 3) (if x (list 2 3 ))). 23:42:39 pattern. 23:42:48 persi: i'd test for nil and push/nreverse... all this appending is crazy. 23:42:50 Trying to get rid of all the (list...) 23:42:58 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:43:02 or loop 23:43:17 (loop for foo in list if foo collect foo) 23:43:38 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:43:38 drewc: na that wont work. 23:43:46 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:57 (nconc (list 1 3) (if x (list 2 3)) (list 3 4) (if y (list 4 5))) 23:44:08 Thats what i'm trying to simplify. 23:44:39 Sorry for taking me so long to clarify. 23:44:49 (loop for foo in (list (list 1 3) (if x (list 2 3)) (list 3 4) (if y (list 4 5))) if foo collect foo) 23:45:08 ahem, how is that any better? 23:45:46 well, it's not clear why you are trying to do what you are trying to do :) 23:46:00 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has quit [] 23:46:05 trying to build up a list as i described. 23:46:31 was just hoping that there was a more idiomatic way. 23:47:45 well, i'd use (list 1 3 3 4) ... that's a lot cleaner and does not involve any undefined variables :) 23:47:52 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 23:48:18 what i'm saying is that, in the context of your algorithm, what is it you are trying to achieve and why? 23:48:23 What's wrong with 'remove'? 23:49:02 drewc. trying to build up list with conditionals inside build. 23:49:14 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["GONE"] 23:49:26 ahaas: i guess nothing except a list traversal. 23:49:32 persi: why build a list like that? why not push/nreverse? 23:49:56 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:50:09 why all this magic just to get (1 3 3 4). why are you consing up all these lists just to flatten them back out? 23:50:17 drewc: because the order in the code makes sense in that its a template. 23:50:18 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:50:36 drewc: x and y may or may not be true. 23:51:03 When I run into a problem like this, I usually step back to see if the encompassing algorithm is creating the problem. 23:51:11 drewc: and I believe that it's reusing the cons cells, just relinking. 23:51:38 SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has joined #lisp 23:52:13 Not a problem. Say its setting up a todo list. (nconc (list 'wake) (if hungry (list 'eat)) (if weekday 'go-to-work) etc...) 23:52:30 (if weekday (list 'go-to-work)) 23:53:20 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:37 Algorithm is sound. Just asking if there is a semantic shortcut to all the (list..). 23:53:41 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:49 (loop repeat 1 collect 'wake when hungry collect 'eat when weakday collect 'go-to-work ...) (extended if* at work ;) 23:53:55 sounds like general problem solver 23:55:37 pkhuong: eeek. I guess that gets rid of the (list..) but not a very nice trade. 23:55:54 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:03 anyhow. thanks for letting me ping your brains... 23:58:13 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 23:59:33 -!- Xach has set mode -b *!*n=ushdf@*.syr.edu 23:59:41 -!- Xach has set mode -bb *!*n=lol@*.man.east.verizon.net *!*n=jpthing@*.customer.alfanett.no 23:59:45 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"]