00:04:11 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:23 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:08:21 birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 00:08:39 -!- trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-211-248.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:46 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:24:40 with the runtime options saving you could add a DWNM --compile argument to sbcl. 00:25:13 and a --compile-script option too 00:25:32 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:30:11 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:20 donald [n=kfv@77.51.179.18] has joined #lisp 00:30:37 -!- donald [n=kfv@77.51.179.18] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:31:31 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-126-241.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:31:41 donald [n=kfv@77.51.179.18] has joined #lisp 00:32:07 esden___ [n=esdentem@91-67-156-25-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:32:53 -!- envi_orz is now known as envi_office 00:32:59 -!- envi_office is now known as envi^office 00:33:47 hmm, I'm trying to install prevalence with clbuild, but it's not exactly working, for some reason.. 00:34:05 warning: no dependencies for prevalence found, Error: cannot download unknown project prevalence 00:34:46 oooh hey, this does not work like urpmi... d'oh. sorry :) didn'tknow you had to specify the full name 00:35:22 -!- donald [n=kfv@77.51.179.18] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:04 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 00:40:16 tarrant [n=tarrant@c-71-195-219-175.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:20 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178003048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:21 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:40:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:41:25 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-24-238.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:01 mulligan [n=user@e178003048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:43:33 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 00:43:56 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.46.21] has joined #lisp 00:44:11 malune [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:45:27 ths_ [n=ths@X7cbb.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:45:39 hello peoplez, i have been coding 3d stuff for the past few days and quite a lot of the code that i've produced is undocumented and untutorialed(vbo, shaders, object model loading). Is there a cl-gardening mathing that I should contribute to?. 00:49:26 malune: what's a mathing? 00:49:56 Xach: project ? 00:50:18 Xach: seedling? 00:50:23 malune: i don't think so. if i were you, i'd just write it down on my website. 00:50:51 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:50:55 Xach: okay, like write a tutorial or something? what is your website? 00:51:06 malune: i mean for *your* website. 00:51:38 Xach: yeah, thing is I only have a blog with no posts, and I doubt anyone will read it. :) 00:52:04 malune: if it helps people do something interesting, people will read it. 00:52:30 Xach: okay, but how do people know that it exists? 00:52:42 malune: Write about it in your blog. 00:52:54 malune: If it's interestig, I'll be sure to link to it, too. 00:53:16 people will find it via google and things like that 00:53:58 malune, you could add something about it to cliki 00:54:03 Xach: oh right. your optimism has given me motivation. okay I will write about it in my blog. and then I should just avert you in this irc? 00:54:16 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:54:22 malune: if you mention "common lisp" in your blog, i will find it anyway 00:55:10 Xach: wow so all i have to do is write the blog post and magically things will happen. that sounds good. :) 00:55:59 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:29 -!- ths [n=ths@X4ccf.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:07 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:16 Xach: okay, i'll be done creating the tutorial probably in a few hours, I will let you know when its done. 01:01:49 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 01:02:28 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 01:02:41 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has left #lisp 01:02:58 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:03:17 killring [n=killring@adsl-76-226-109-152.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:40 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:12:43 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:14:03 hmm, i've just been looking on google for cl-opengl tutorials, and I haven't found any, apart from the /examples folder in darcs. Has no one actually created any tutorials?! If this is the case maybe I should start with some more basic tutorials first? 01:14:14 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:32 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:14:33 malune: i don't think i've seen one. i think a basic tutorial is a good idea. 01:14:58 malune: my impression is that you're supposed to know how to use opengl in c. it would be nice if that weren't a requirement. 01:15:26 Xach: yeah, and actually theres a lot of functionality in cl-opengl which is not found in the C lib. 01:15:41 Xach: a lot of code has been lispified. 01:15:51 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:16 Xach: okay well I think i'm going to take the NeHe approach then. 01:18:12 malune: the Neon-Helium approach ? 01:18:46 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:28 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.0.19] has joined #lisp 01:19:32 fe[nl]ix: yeah, start with the basics of setting up a window, keyboard & mouse input etc... 01:20:19 malune: i'd like to do some stuff with opengl in lisp so i'd love to see a tutorial that was geared for a lisp library 01:20:32 i have a C opengl book, but haven't gone through it yet. 01:21:14 lol 01:21:43 Xach: its actually a lot easier in Lisp than in C. :) 01:22:09 hmm 01:22:22 Xach: though some lispified extensions are a bit dodgy at the moment. 01:22:23 malune: I thought I made a joke. it seems NeHe actually exists :D 01:22:25 Im having trouble running urmpi --auto-update with distrib-coffee as a repos 01:22:42 b4|hraban: what's urmpi? 01:22:54 http://pastebin.com/d7352e8a8 01:23:09 fe[nl]ix: yeah they are the most famous OpenGL tutorials! :) 01:23:23 Xach, it's a tool that helps me to discern between nitpickers and normal people 01:23:29 it works really well, as you can see. 01:23:49 b4|hraban: i think that's better discussed in some other channel 01:23:52 Xach: it's Mandriva's package manager 01:23:53 wait 01:23:54 damn 01:24:04 ... stupid xchat 01:24:11 -_- all my excuses 01:24:19 malune: I think translating C OpenGL to Lisp cl-opengl is mostly straightforward.. from what little experience I have. 01:24:42 malune: it's nice when a lisp library for some task takes advantage of the features of lisp 01:26:14 adeht: yeah, the symbols are slightly different. Also the memory related stuff is non-obvious. the lisp shader functions are really nice, much nicer than the c equivalents. 01:27:02 adeht: for an example of what i mean by non-obvious, see vertex buffer object extension, which has its functions defined but uses gl:allocate instead of cffi:foreign-alloc in order to allocate its buffers. 01:27:32 adeht: and since it requires gl:vertex-pointer, which uses cffi allocated memory and not gl:allocated mem ... 01:27:58 malune: ah, I didn't mess with that 01:28:17 adeht: its good if you want your code to run super fast. :) 01:28:32 Hey I'm an absolute noob lisper, I have the code: "(defun += (num addition) (= num (+ num addition)))" It keeps returning nil, what am I missing? 01:29:11 tarrant: = is equivalence operator, not assignment 01:29:25 setf right? 01:29:42 tarrant: yeah 01:29:47 tarrant: Lisp is pass-by-value, `=' doesn't do what you think it does, and you should know about `incf'. 01:30:26 thanks as I said just teaching myself and keep getting caught on small technical mistypes, and confusions. 01:30:44 tarrant: are you following along with a book? 01:30:47 tarrant: have you checked out On Lisp? 01:30:56 On Lisp is a bad first lisp book. 01:31:13 I was using "Practical common lisp" took a break and am taking a swing at a project euler question for practice. 01:31:25 http://l1sp.org/lisp/books lists a few books, some are online 01:31:39 tarrant: practical common lisp is a good one from which to learn 01:32:00 thanks for the help 01:32:50 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 01:33:39 tarrant: the _MACRO_, incf, does (sort of) what += does, but understand that is has to be a macro. 01:36:17 the concept of bindings is pretty important 01:36:19 Does it only interment? 01:36:44 increment* 01:36:57 tarrant: yes. decf decrements. 01:37:35 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:55 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:58 lui1 [n=luis@bl5-41-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:48:27 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:53:04 Xach: I started with On Lisp and I thought it was amazing. :) 01:53:08 hmm I've defined a method with first argument defined as 'simple-vector, assuming that invoking it with 'simple-vector as type-specifier at funcall would work, yet I get an unexisting method error 01:53:17 calling it with "simple-vector" works though 01:54:01 how would I go about making it work with 'simple-vector, just like sequence's MAP does? 01:54:46 Xach: especially the introductory chapter, very good for motivation :D 01:54:51 phadthai: what does your defmethod look like? 01:54:52 -!- luis [n=luis@bl5-52-143.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:02 Xach: I'll post an example, brb 01:55:22 malune: i don't like it as a first book because of the advanced topics, the out-of-date-ness with regard to common lisp, and misleading information about common lisp. 01:55:56 Xach: oh right, what do you mean by out of date ness and misleading information? 01:56:12 graham is not a common lisper, and makes that clear. 01:56:24 he likes scheme ffs! 01:56:26 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:31 drewc: lol, scheme rocks! 01:56:33 malune: it predates the final common lisp standard and it shows in several places, iirc with a bogus example of IN-PACKAGE being used to create packages. 01:57:00 malune: and there's an example that sticks in my mind that does a convoluted function in order to have something in the tail position, and then goes on to claim "this is the way fast lisp code is written" 01:57:07 malune: on a scale of 1 to rocks, with common lisp being 10 and 0 being C, scheme is a 7 01:57:30 Xach: i haven't read it as closely as you have, i really like his macro examples. 01:57:34 drewc: I hope your scale includes a lot of languages with negative scores. 01:57:35 Xach: http://pastebin.ca/1225554 01:57:43 drewc: what about PLT Scheme? :) 01:57:57 malune: PLT gets an 8.5 01:58:04 malune: i don't like his macro examples, but other people do. i think those are not the best first things to read. 01:58:19 how do you quantify, say, tcl? 01:58:32 Xach: hmm, yeah, i think maybe SICP is better. ;) 01:58:43 hefner: it's a scale of rocks .. there is nothing below C .. if it's not on the scale it doesn't rock :) 01:58:51 I mean, I have to force myself to not think about that question because I may /go insane if I do/. 01:58:59 phadthai: that is (defmethod seqmake ((quote simple-vector) ...) ...) 01:59:09 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.19] has joined #lisp 01:59:12 jfm3: tcl is probably around 5-6 01:59:18 drewc: that's a good approach. 01:59:18 *jfm3* explodes 01:59:22 phadthai: so your argument name is QUOTE and it is specialized on a simple-vector 01:59:25 I'd say 1 is typed lambda calculi :D 01:59:34 jfm3: i like tcl, and it's my scale! 01:59:35 Xach: oh 01:59:45 *jfm3* explodes again 01:59:52 *malune* hijaks drewcs scale 02:00:08 hmm, is fixnum a standard class? 02:00:19 Xach: i don't think so 02:00:37 phadthai: i don't think you can rely on the class fixnum existing in every lisp, though it seems to in sbcl. 02:00:41 i think it's a subtype of integer, and integer is the standard class 02:00:42 I thought it was but that its size would vary with implementations, but maybe not 02:00:57 clhs fixnum 02:00:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_fixnum.htm 02:01:31 confirmed .. no class precedence list means it's not a class. 02:01:53 phadthai: if you want to specialize on the symbol, you can use (defmethod seqmake ((type (eql 'simple-vector)) ...) ...) 02:02:11 ah this would be perfect :) 02:02:16 thanks 02:05:25 works great 02:05:44 intrados [n=intrados@rdrt-164-107-204-170.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 02:09:35 *Xach* aims to please 02:10:42 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:05 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:22 tag [n=scott@p3m/member/tag] has joined #lisp 02:11:57 -!- postamar [n=postamar@76-10-148-183.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 02:15:35 rudi [n=rudi@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/rudi] has joined #lisp 02:15:47 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 02:15:49 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 02:18:58 okay i've created an initial attempt at a tutorial... 02:20:13 Xach: would you mind looking over it and flaming me? 02:20:42 *malune* feels insecure about posting it up on my blog in its current state 02:25:59 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@dpc6746179243.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:34 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:27:59 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:31:25 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Operation timed out] 02:31:42 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 02:39:02 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:41:00 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 02:46:47 derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:47:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:24 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-194.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:55:00 good morning 02:55:39 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:55:51 beach: good evening 02:58:44 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:58:53 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 03:01:23 tarrant: what made you want to learn Lisp? 03:03:21 To be honest, Paul Graham. I read his news site which lead me to his blog. Then several months later I put lisp into google for some reason and came across defmacro.org and the articles there have re-spawned my interest. 03:04:09 I also find the () and style to be interesting. Getting your mind around it is a bit different but once you do its kinda fun to read. 03:04:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 03:05:43 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.0.19] has left #lisp 03:06:25 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:06:27 -!- spacebat_ is now known as spacebat 03:06:57 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:09:21 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@3-033.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:45 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-05ae19258f7295e9] has joined #lisp 03:12:59 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:26 beach: yourself? 03:13:52 tarrant: I have been using Lisp for about 30 years. 03:14:23 beach: back in the ai labs? 03:14:48 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:14:56 Not quite, no. I took a course at the university. 03:19:17 hey do you guys know much about cl-opengl, i'm looking for someone to criticize an introductory tutorial i just wrote. 03:19:27 -!- killring [n=killring@adsl-76-226-109-152.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:22:14 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 03:22:26 hmm sbcl's sequence fill seems to return NIL instead of provided sequence, anyone know if that was chosen for performance or if a noncomformance bug is worth filling? 03:22:35 malune: I don't know much about cl-opengl, but I would very much like for such a tutorial to exist. 03:22:47 i.e. (fill (list 0 1 2 3 4 5) '(444)) 03:23:09 malune: (trying to learn opengl). I could comment from a "I actually need to learn things from this tutorial" standpoint. 03:23:39 mogunus: that would be great. its quite fast paced and i made it in 20 minutes so don't expect amazingness. 03:23:55 mogunus: i need people to criticise it before posting it on my blog. :) 03:24:11 mogunus: its in doc format at the moment though so i'd have to send it somewhere. 03:24:23 phadthai: the fill example you gave returns the new sequence for me (sbcl 1.0.19) 03:24:34 phadthai: works for me too 03:24:50 ah so it was fixed prior to .16 then :) thanks 03:24:58 -!- jollygood_______ [n=jolly@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:25:02 malune: I... can't read docs. but if you'd stick the text into an email, I have a gmail address corrosponding to this nick. 03:25:04 err after .16 03:25:04 it returns NIL for me with 1.0.15 03:25:20 mogunus: okay i'll send it over now 03:25:28 jollygood_______ [n=jolly@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 03:25:40 wfm on 1.0.21.5. 03:26:45 mogunus: sent 03:27:59 -!- vanLiempt is now known as Liempt 03:28:19 Looks like a known regression in 1.0.12.16 fixed in 1.0.17.21 03:30:55 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31:07 malune: This is pretty good. I've been translating C/C++ materials into CL to try and learn opengl, and that's been... interesting. 03:31:50 mogunus: cool, glad you liked it. is there stuff you'd like added or described at greater depth? 03:32:10 malune: if you could explain gl:frustum, and the matrix-mode calls, that would be really good. 03:32:42 mogunus: okay, what i could do is describe every function i suppose. 03:33:21 malune: that would be idea, but to myself (herr noobness) those two are the least straightforward. 03:33:49 s/idea/ideal 03:34:05 mogunus: okay, maybe I could add a diagram describing the view frustum, and then maybe a description of the projection matrix and how that works. 03:34:40 malune: that would be *awesome*, especially if you do more tutorials in the future. 03:35:17 mogunus: yeah well my plan was originally to describe shaders and vertex buffer objects, but then i realised there were no tutorials at all so i thought i'd start from the beginning. 03:35:43 mogunus: so my plan is to get to a point where everyone can make a homebrew 3d engine in lisp. :D 03:36:06 malune: I really like that plan. Mostly because I really want to make a homebrew 3d engine in lisp. 03:36:47 mogunus: sweet, okay well i'll make the changes that you asked for then, and add more detail about all of the functions that i use. 03:37:14 malune: thanks. this is sure to be a popular series of things, I would think. 03:37:42 malune: where will this tutorial be posted when finished? 03:38:12 retupmoca: on my blog, which has 0 posts so far. :) cmalune.wordpress.com 03:39:09 i've actually got code for loading 3d models using vertex buffer objects, and i wrote a model exporter for blender which exports in lisp format. :) 03:39:22 so i'm thinking that could also be of interest 03:39:38 *retupmoca* thinks he should learn blender 03:39:59 but it's so complicated :( 03:40:25 retupmoca: theres a really good tutorial that i got my little brother to do, if you google "blender animation tutorial" its very easy to follow and will get you up and running in no time at all. My brother created a fish model in day which looks really really good. :) 03:40:41 retupmoca: I think its the first tutorial that shows up. 03:40:43 malune: that blender exporter sounds great 03:41:21 younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 03:41:35 malune: ty 03:41:44 phadthai: its really simple at the moment, still need to add texcoords etc, but once that, and all the easy tutorials are done i will be sure to tutorialise it. :D 03:46:22 sqvirt [n=sqvirt@c-24-16-244-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:02 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 03:51:45 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:01:27 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:03:14 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:35 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:07:55 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit [Client Quit] 04:08:09 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:09:34 simonthegreat [n=deltah@c-24-22-116-199.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:50 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:36 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-126-241.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 04:17:22 -!- simonthegreat [n=deltah@c-24-22-116-199.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:27:30 -!- Zen_Clark [n=user@99-136-80-191.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:29:42 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 04:30:29 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:30:31 -!- vanLiempt is now known as Liempt 04:30:47 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 04:31:03 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Client Quit] 04:32:42 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 04:41:33 mogunus: I started describing matrices in atrocious detail, would it be useful do you think for a first tutorial to describe everything relating to the camera? That way you could get to understand the view frustum better maybe? 04:41:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-224.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 04:41:56 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 04:47:11 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 04:50:51 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 04:53:47 -!- btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f271.bb.sky.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:56:04 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Success] 04:59:30 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E440AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:38 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:42 JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:51 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.19] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:08:17 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@166.pool85-54-98.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:19 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:10:48 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:49 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43789.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:14:33 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:17:37 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-126-241.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:17:55 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@94.178.8.213] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:21:16 aquateen_ [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:25 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:32:24 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:33:03 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:45:59 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 05:46:27 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 05:48:07 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 05:48:13 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@59.144.124.106] has joined #lisp 05:48:21 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:50 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:56:56 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:00:07 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:06:10 good morning 06:06:17 hello mvilleneuve 06:06:22 c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:06:57 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-126-241.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 06:13:07 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:11 -!- aquateen_ [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:14:40 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:21 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:55 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:06 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-131-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:22 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:29:38 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-099-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 06:30:24 RoomsUser___ [n=mobile@c-68-84-6-183.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:44 -!- RoomsUser___ is now known as SissyMaleGwen 06:32:04 Hello everyone 06:33:58 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 06:34:11 Would anyone like to chat privately with a "girl" with something extra? 06:34:22 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*n=mobile@*.hsd1.va.comcast.net 06:34:41 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 06:34:51 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:35:25 -!- SissyMaleGwen [n=mobile@c-68-84-6-183.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:35:53 I think maybe they misunderstood what 'lisp' means 06:36:53 or they were trolling? 06:37:01 -!- tarrant [n=tarrant@c-71-195-219-175.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:37:33 tarrant [n=tarrant@c-71-195-219-175.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:14 or greifing 06:39:34 working on their internet merit badges 06:42:08 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-042-098-200.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:43:02 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:32 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-143-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:46:48 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:51:35 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 06:55:15 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:57:02 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:57:21 as an aside, being forced to use old versions of things because it doesn't belong to you and they wanted to run redhat enterprise from like 03 is heinous 06:59:37 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:42 Moin. 07:01:43 (What's new and exciting?) 07:01:53 hello lichtblau 07:02:06 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 07:02:07 It has been pretty quiet here. 07:02:28 phew, nearly finished this damn tutorial 07:03:00 *malune* hopes it will be useful to someone :D 07:06:53 malune: tutorial on what? 07:07:38 G0SUB: cl-opengl, there are absolutely no tutorials and I thought this was tragic, so I wrote one 07:07:52 malune: excellent. thanks! 07:08:03 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:08:10 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:08:28 G0SUB: its a beginner tutorial, originally i wanted to talk about shaders, vbos, model loading, blender exporting ... but i realised that starting from the beginning would be more useful. 07:08:39 hmm 07:09:20 G0SUB: my next tutorial will be on openGL 3 functionality though, so VBOs is next up. Then shaders. :) 07:10:34 G0SUB: i want beginners to think in VBOs, because thats how it should be done. 07:10:53 right 07:11:14 and its not too complicated anyway :) 07:11:58 and cl-opengl has cool wrapper macros so it shows the power of lisp for 3d stuff 07:12:26 hi guys -- any library out there for doing mmap in cl? 07:12:43 c|mell: cffi? 07:13:52 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:14:22 c|mell: osicat: http://common-lisp.net/project/osicat/git/osicat.git 07:15:05 malune: which Lisp are you using? what's your project's page? 07:15:42 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:16:55 ivanst [i=ivans@93-138-20-191.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:17:42 fe[nl]ix, osicat looks cool (it is just an ffi wrapper for mmap) 07:18:15 i was wondering if there were something that let's you easily treat an mmap as a simple array of unsigned byte x 07:18:25 guess not 07:18:38 -!- tarrant [n=tarrant@c-71-195-219-175.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:19:27 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:30 c|mell: that's very implementation-dependent 07:19:42 yes 07:19:45 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:17 guess i will make one for sbcl and openmcl at least 07:20:19 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:21:25 -!- H4nsX [n=H4ns@p57A0FE07.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 07:21:44 check the sbcl mailing list archives - that sounds like something that jsnell would have written about / done already / figured out in 5 minutes 07:23:01 yes it is easy for just sbcl 07:23:24 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 07:23:25 sb-kernel:%make-lisp-obj 07:23:29 or fairly easy 07:23:37 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:23:57 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:52 puchacz: I'm using SBCL, i don't have a project page yet. 07:25:21 malune: ok, I'll certainly check it out when you publish it. 07:25:26 puchacz: It would be nice if people could criticize the first tutorial before I post it, so that I don't look like an idiot. :) 07:25:34 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:25:49 malune: don't be overcritical, go ahead :-) 07:26:22 malune: sure about that? if you post a first version and then visibly incorporate changes, giving credit, you might get more contributions over time 07:26:44 take advantage of the vanity of your fellow man! 07:26:59 rudi: well i'd definitely like to incorporate changes over time anyway, i just think it would be better if the tutorial is good to start with. :) 07:27:12 rudi: care to take a look at what i have so far? 07:27:43 malune: I'm at work, so not within the next 6 hours or so, sorry.. 07:27:57 rudi: no probs, by then it will probably be posted anyway :) 07:27:58 malune: what's more, you might find much better critics from the general public, than hand-picked. for example, I am not a good candidate, as it's been 7-8 years or so since I played with OpenGL. 07:28:30 ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4bf959b10a49e2ef] has joined #lisp 07:28:42 puchacz: yeah, i will post it up in 30 minutes once i've over criticized it myself mweheh :) 07:28:55 malune: good for you, thanks 07:29:12 shooting off for my work soon, I'll check it out in the evening. 07:29:18 cool, ty 07:30:12 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-143-120.netcologne.de] has quit [] 07:36:12 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:15 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:41:30 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:42:28 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 07:48:29 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:52:53 woa, okay the tutorial is posted, i still need to sort out the formatting though. link: http://cmalune.wordpress.com/2008/10/13/setting-up-a-glut-window-in-common-lisp/ 07:53:28 using pre or code tags would be nice. 07:53:35 what's glut? 07:53:41 gl utility functions. 07:54:02 tic: pre and code tags, does that just involve
? 07:54:17 was wondering how to format the code properly 07:54:19 malune, yes. dunno if wordpress requires something else, but that should work. 07:54:24 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has joined #lisp 07:54:29 cool thanks 07:54:30 pre preserves whitespace, iirc. 07:54:48 but wordpress can be broken. try and see! 07:55:03 ty 07:57:10 sad day when I come here and see WP being discussed. 07:57:27 ty = topic something? 07:58:35 argh its harder to format this damn thing than to create it lol 07:58:47 JuanDaugherty, "thank you" 07:58:53 malune, yes. wordpress sucks. 07:59:06 tic: what would you recommend i use? 07:59:08 pre and/or code. might have to actually enable whitespace preservation. 07:59:23 malune, no idea. :( google for wordpres and code. they often recommend paste-sites. 07:59:26 yeah i just tried pre but it doesn't help 07:59:32 -!- JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:59:33 fix your css. 07:59:45 lolz, you should see the generated css :) 07:59:54 `pre` preserves whitespace, so if that's not working for you, you've messed up something. 07:59:57 Linky? 08:00:08 
08:00:27  Aankhen``: http://cmalune.wordpress.com/2008/10/13/setting-up-a-glut-window-in-common-lisp/
08:00:28  tic: That's the default for `pre`, so no point putting in the `style` attribute.
08:00:37 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."]
08:00:51  andrewy, default for pre, yes. do you know what wordpress does to the world?
08:00:58 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
08:01:01  Er, wow, that's some ugly HTML.
08:01:03  i'm just changing the style of the blog at the moment, the text is way too small
08:01:04  ehh, ankhen.
08:01:19  Aankhen: yeah, i just posted it a few minutes ago gimme a change to sort it out lol
08:01:27  malune: I don't see any `pre` elements whatsoever on that page.
08:01:55  chance, even
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08:13:11  hello lispers
08:14:48  morning
08:15:13  hello ehu`
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08:29:13  okay its a bit more readable now :D
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08:34:41  malune: Why do you have so many inline `style` attributes?
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08:36:01  malune: an article about graphics programming and no pretty pictures?
08:36:34  jdz: i'm working on that, wordpress doesn't like me
08:36:48  Aankhen``: i'm not sure, all of that stuff is auto generated.
08:39:06 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2BE77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
08:40:11  Ah.
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08:40:20  jdz: theres at least one screenshot now! :)
08:41:20  malune: that's cool.
08:44:09 *malune* thinks its not very concise :/
08:44:10  malune: one more comment - code samples look weird on WebKit browser. first they have weird line spacings (i guess too many line breaks). and then the markup of special variables (which lose the asterisks and get converted to bold) distorts the code markup.
08:44:59  jdz: yeah thats actually showing up in my browser too, rectifying... :)
08:45:11  malune: my verdict: wordpress is not suitable for lisp programming related articles :
08:46:10  jdz: what would you use?
08:47:00  jdz: i'm open to change, its only my first post. would be nice if i could get something that doesn't generate so much html, and colorizes lisp code without me having to mess about with php scripts.
08:47:35  malune: i'd first try if writing up an article in org-mode and then exporting to HTML would look ok :)
08:47:46  malune: i'll just try with a bit of your article now
08:48:07  jdz: thats a good idea actually
08:48:11  hmm, I published code snippets (when I was writing on my blog) and it worked ok
08:48:36  rudi: my spacing gets all messed up :/ saying that i took the code from an openoffice doc so that may be why
08:49:24  http://constantly.at/blog/2007/12/12/parenscript-vs-scriptaculous/ look ok-ish to me
08:50:53  rudi: yeah that looks nice
08:51:03  rudi: did you just paste that in from emacs?
08:51:42  let me check...
08:53:10 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-042-098-200.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
08:53:12  btw do you guys think theres too much to read in my post? I could condense it but it would make things a bit less obvious
08:54:05  malune: are you simon alexander?
08:54:08  yes, pasted in surrounded by 
 and converted & to & (likewise < and > )
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08:55:55  manuel_: simon who? :)
08:56:15   oh no just wondered which post you were talking about
08:56:29  simon alexander's nick is salex
08:56:35  ah right
08:56:42  rudi: Cappuccino looks more interesting to me.  http://cappuccino.org/
08:57:00  rudi: okay i'll try pasting my code from emacs and see if it makes a difference
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08:57:21  malune: google pages works ok
08:57:33  matimago: the link was only about the html, not about the content ;)
08:57:35  Xach: btw, I did that tutorial and posted it up, i was talking to you about it about 12 hours ago or so
08:57:53  rudi: Ok :-) I missed a QUOTE.
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09:00:06  rudi: ahh its working better now that i'm pasting from emacs. :)
09:05:24  malune: a quick orgified fragment of your article: http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/test.html (org file http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/test.org)
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09:06:53  jdz: wow nice!
09:07:23  jdz: how did you do that? link to org mathing?
09:07:44  malune: what is mathing again?
09:07:47  malune: orgmode.org
09:08:05  Xach: project. :)
09:08:12  Xach: i don't know what mathing is, but i parsed the link part :)
09:08:43  malune: would you please write "project" instead?
09:09:33  Xach: sure, if it bothers you
09:09:50  org rocks.  org inferior-tables rock^2
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09:10:37 *lichtblau* has no idea what *anybody* is talking about today
09:10:50  is this a parallel universe #lisp?
09:11:35  lichtblau: no
09:12:08  lichtblau: we're talking about mathings. :) just kidding Xach
09:13:05  malune: a bonus of using org-mode: http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/test.pdf
09:13:27  jdz: sweet!!!
09:13:33 *malune* is RTFM
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09:15:04  jdz: "A tree works like your brain", are the authors lispers? :D
09:15:38  lichtblau: malune wrote a tutorial on cl-opengl and hoped for useful input; he's getting comments on html and formatting instead.
09:16:19  orgmode? meh, restructuredtext!
09:16:45  (i wonder about including the screenshots using org-mode...)
09:17:27  jdz: shouldn't matter too much since its only one link, can just add to the generated html.
09:17:56  jdz: apparently, org cvs has grown some notion of file attachments, with git integration (I only skimmed the changelog, though)
09:19:08  rudi: i think if i get no input on the cl-opengl within a week, i will just re write it and try to improve it so that I eventually do. :)
09:20:37  rudi: I think maybe people will be more interested in the opengl 3 stuff anyway, i just wanted to get a basic tutorial out so that people have a skeleton to begin with.
09:22:01 *malune* is working on getting freetype working at the moment
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11:43:33  Hmm, I didn't expect CCASE of SBCL to evaluate its sub-place argument multiple times.
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11:44:16  For instance: (ccase (car (progn (print "hello") (list 1 2 3))) (4 (princ "done")))
11:44:51  Where "hello" gets printed twice initially, and then every time around the loop of invoking the store-value restart.
11:46:01  Ah, the Common Lisp HyperSpec says that's allowed.
11:47:40  Hmm, no it doesn't.  It says that "the subforms of keyplace might be evaluated again if non oe fhe cases holds."
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11:47:59  But it doesn't say that they can be evaluated multiple times if one clause holds.
11:48:41  Oh, and SBCL doesn't in that case, so that's fine.
11:49:08  hello bea
11:49:09  hello beach
11:49:41  Hey mvilleneuve.  I am just trying to generate some noise here.  It's too quiet.
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11:50:31  Anyway, it would be nice to see how hard it is to write ccase so that no multiple evaluation of the subforms of the keyplace takes place.
11:52:00  How can I get the argument list of a previously defined function?
11:53:59  vy: you can try function-lambda-expression
11:54:51  vy: But it is not guaranteed to work.
11:55:07  beach: Thanks!
11:55:32  beach: Because of there are so much implementation dependent return values?
11:55:33  vy: "Any implementation may legitimately return nil as the lambda-expression of any function."
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11:56:55 *beach* is guessing that this was done so in order to keep source code secret for commercial implementations.
11:57:35 qsun_ [n=chatzill@d122-104-42-158.bla3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp
11:58:03  My reasoning is definitely incomplete.
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11:58:26  e271: that's meant for #abcl?
11:59:11  vy: swank and documentation-template both have ways to retrieve argument lists if at all supported by the implementation
11:59:44 *michaelw* 's English is worse than usual today
12:00:15  michaelw: I was just looking at swank-x.lisp sources.
12:00:54  DREI too, according to tcr
12:01:25  DREI uses swank.
12:01:46  (or did, last time I looked)
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12:21:13  the thing that bugs me about using f-l-e to get lambda lists is that it succeeds less often than necessary (many impls keep lambda lists but not f-l-e)
12:21:24  Krystof: around?
12:21:28  and it's more work than necessary
12:21:41  it's a perfectly fine workaround, but it shouldn't be necessary
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12:23:19  hello
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12:39:44  beach: or also, to allow CL compilers to produce hello world executable of less than 2KB... ;-)
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12:44:32  Possibly.
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12:46:23  hello.
12:48:55  Hello trebor_win.
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13:13:56 *trebor_win* is happy that he is now officially allowed to use lisp for his micro-ct (3d-image-analysis) project ;)
13:14:03  congrats!
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13:19:09  cool :)
13:19:15  ct as in ct-scans?
13:19:18 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp
13:19:24  yes. exactly.
13:19:47 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp
13:19:57   /away
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13:20:20  trebor_win: you understand that you can't fail this one, because if someone gets the wrong dose, Lisp will be blamed, and then we will have another 15-years of "winter".
13:21:40 -!- staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@74.220.198.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:22:15  the first algorithm was a success - it was nice to see that lisp is fast enough and that i did not run into memory problems.
13:23:13  now i can really learn lisp ;)
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13:30:32  trebor_win, yow
13:30:56  beach, does that imply we now have spring?
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13:43:30  tic: Hard to say.  Things certanly look better than a few years back, at least as far as I can tell.
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13:48:27 *Xach* hopes never to see a "wigflip winter"
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13:50:53  where does wigflip fit in AI?
13:52:28 ttessier [n=ttessier@d121-146-132.home3.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp
13:52:53  wigflip -> lisp, lisp -> ai, therefore wigflip -> ai
13:53:03  is there a cmul anything in here?
13:53:19  tessier?
13:53:26 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp
13:53:30  wtf?
13:53:35 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xof
13:54:09  is there a ray of light anywhere for x86 sol?
13:54:23  ttessier: either start making sense, or shut up
13:54:37  solaris x86
13:54:43  I am looking for help with it
13:55:08  are you referring to sunray thin-clients?
13:55:15  no
13:55:29  This channel is for discussion of Common Lisp. If you are looking for help on using CL on Solaris x86, ask a question related to that.
13:55:32 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit []
13:55:32  If not, find a more appropriate venue.
13:56:16  ok, that is what I was looking for cmul and solaris x86
13:56:33  Do you mean CMUCL?
13:56:37  yes, thats it
13:56:40  H4ns: i've seen wigflip.com, but sorry for this nobo-question - what is meant by wigflip, here?
13:56:48  I was speaking to someone about it this morning
13:57:09  I was hoping to catch them on here
13:57:27  but if not, thats ok, I won't bug anymore, thanks
13:57:32  trebor_win: wigflip is implemented in CL, by Xach.
13:58:09  trebor_win: CL is implemented in AI. Therefore WigFlip is implemented in AI.  Or is there some fallacy in there?
13:58:37  matimago: I think that only holds for users of ACL, because Franz says it has AI built in.
13:58:49  ah. i thought there would be a hidden meaning ;)
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14:50:02  is it possible to do multithreading/-processing in ecl?
14:50:32  Doesn't bordeaux-threads support ECL?
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14:58:01  trebor_win, yes, see http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch19.html
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15:02:21  azuk`: thanks. reading.
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15:27:15 *Xach* has so much to blog, so little time
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15:56:05   /window 4
15:56:11  heh, sorry
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16:01:09  malune: re row major ordering for matrices, that's also pretty much required by the CL spec, so you can use unportable stuff in CL (or 4x4 matrices displaced to 16-long vectors) to have convenient indexing *and* foreign code friendliness.
16:01:40 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit []
16:01:45 *hefner* just uses vectors for matrices
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16:04:11  heya
16:04:15 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp
16:04:30  is there any common packages to do vector math?
16:04:30  and
16:04:48  how should I package a program that takes many files?
16:05:33  Tordek: http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html
16:06:54  Tordek: redshank contains some emacs skeletons which generate a first cut of your defpackage and asdf:defsystem for you
16:09:08  hefner: same here, but I acknowledge that it's less convenient than it could be... I use vectors out of habit (C) and because sbcl isn't that hot with them, I guess.
16:10:38 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp
16:11:07  'morning
16:11:16  thanks michaelw
16:12:35  I nees to learn emacs... (load)ing every change is a bit tedious...
16:13:13  yes, yes you do.
16:13:42  you still load changes with emacs.
16:13:46  there's just a keybinding for it.
16:14:07  doesn't mean learning emacs isn't an excellent idea, bougyman
16:14:19  ;)
16:14:20  salex: i didn't claim so.
16:14:25 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos
16:14:40  but those in here acted as if emacs/slime was some magic have-to-have-it stuff.
16:14:49  it's just a bunch of keybindings.
16:14:49 -!- proq is now known as proqesi
16:14:57 -!- proqesi is now known as proq
16:15:28  bougyman: um, is it?
16:15:31  everyone should have editor-fu, for sure.
16:15:35 gko [n=gko@218-167-98-57.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp
16:15:54  sure, there are key bindings in the inspector, the repl and the debugger, but um. (:
16:16:23 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit []
16:16:26  but um what? keybindings and glue, it's not as elegant as the hype.
16:16:35  though not at all unuseful.
16:16:53  just easily replacable.  <--- that's the part that's left out.
16:16:56  bougyman: it's not that simple.  Sure, some of it (but not all) is `editor-fu', but it's also the best editor-fu we've got, and the best system for coding common lisp in most situations.  Particularly if you are not considering a commercial system
16:17:02  um, a name like "slime" is hardly hyping elegance
16:17:05  bougyman: I meant to say that slime is quite a lot more stuff than editor keybindings
16:17:25  in fact, I would suggest that slime is hyped for its functionality, which empirically is not easily replaced
16:17:29  antifuchs: yes, there's glue as well.
16:17:40  Xof: i disagree re: replacement.
16:17:44  it's vastly better in practice than the interaction in any other editor I know of, for example
16:17:44  see how many have tried and failed to replicate that functionality in other allegedly-popular editors
16:17:51  Xof: not only replaceable, but improvable.
16:17:52  well, call us when there is one that works as well as slime does (:
16:18:00  slime doesn't work for me, at all.
16:18:06  bougyman: I'm sure it's both replaceable and improvable.  But nobody has done it.
16:18:07  but i didn't mean to degrade into flamewar.
16:18:11  bougyman: in theory?  Of course.  In practice, it hasn't been replaced or improved noticeably
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16:18:13  until such time, we'll recommend slime
16:18:16  :)
16:18:23  bougyman: then we must get it working for you (:
16:18:25  hey Xof, how goes?
16:18:28  ok
16:18:39  another reference for you: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.27.3243
16:19:06  slime was nothing but a mess of problems for me.  limp was much quicker to actuall get real work done in, but it got in my way over a few things.
16:19:20  with just a few ideas from limp i'm now up and running at a good velocity with no surprises.
16:19:26  Xof: we're moving into our new flat next week, so prepare for a coming-over-for-tea invitation sometime then (:
16:19:32  Xof: i'm twidding my thumbs here waiting for a meeting.
16:19:55 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp
16:19:57  Xof: beyond that, I'm buried until friday.  but i'd like to play with this sampling idea after that
16:20:04  where is yoru new flat, antifuchs?
16:20:12  Xof: right next to London Bridge
16:20:20 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Client Quit]
16:20:21  also, would people here recommend an eee?
16:20:24 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos
16:20:39  we got the asus eeee, after replacing the xandros that came with it it's been great.
16:20:51  i haven't gotten any with MS on them, as of yet.
16:20:54  (or actively disrecommend?  Not intended for heavy particularly, mostly mobile www/ssh/etc)
16:21:20  Xof: the ones we have are more than adequate for that, but i'd recommend making sure you can type on the keyboard comfortably first.
16:21:26  Xof: it's quite compact.
16:21:35  Xof: a friend of mine uses it, and he complains about the keyboard
16:21:46  Xof: i was wondering about a good synthetic test data set, one that it's easy to evaluate the results of.  Have you had any thoughts in that direction?
16:21:50  i have tiny hands so it was not that bad of a transition.
16:21:55  thx for the cite, btw
16:22:01  xof really wants a macbook air
16:22:15  hefner: impossible to admit
16:22:22  antifuchs: Have I missed something?  Are you actually *living* in London now?
16:22:23  :)
16:22:31  beach: for the next 3 months, at least (:
16:22:40  Xof: that one (from the abstract) looks to be written from the direction of my first inclination (MCMC)
16:22:42  antifuchs: what's the gig?
16:22:56 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.168] has joined #lisp
16:23:04  beach: startup for which a friend and I have just gotten a seed investment (:
16:23:07 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-042-098-200.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
16:23:20  antifuchs: Neat!
16:23:31  salex: so I think that that paper does more than what I originally meant -- it samples from hidden states, but not given a fixed model
16:23:32  we'll see if we can come up with ways to make enough money, and if so, hope for riches (:
16:23:43  antifuchs: So we should hope that the 3 months turn into something more permanent?
16:23:55  isn't the "get seed money / come up with ways to make enough money" sequence kind of backwards?
16:24:13  I like the HP2133's keyboard.
16:24:27  chandler: possibly (:
16:24:38  chandler: Not necessarily.  Some of my former students actually enjoy burning a few years of venture capital and then get a job.
16:24:45  chandler: the people who gave us the money didn't seem to mind very much (that we have a pretty kick-ass product helps, though) (:
16:25:05 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp
16:25:23  Xof: ok, but should be modifiable.  I mean, my original thought was that there should probably be a chain whose ergodic state is the distribution you're looking for.  Question was how to pin it down, so I didn't get past the `hmmm' stage with that.  I'll have a look at that paper when I get a chance
16:26:00 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c121h014.wless.reed.edu] has joined #lisp
16:26:15  beach: right now, I think staying in london would be a very nice thing indeed (:
16:26:24 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c121h014.wless.reed.edu] has left #lisp
16:26:26  chandler: sometimes the way to convince VC/angel/whatever investment that your ideas will plausibly make (them) money and the ways to actually make money are quite divergent
16:26:42  antifuchs: tired of Austria?
16:27:00  we'll see how things go when I have started actually living here (right now, it's more of an extended couchsurfing vacation) (:
16:27:06  london's a nice city. well, maybe not weather-wise ;)
16:27:36  beach: a bit (:
16:28:34  antifuchs: I think I know what you mean (without referring to Austria in particular).
16:29:23  heh
16:29:26 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
16:29:34  yawtza!
16:29:49  hello fusss
16:29:53  quick CFFI question. I can haz recursive structs?
16:29:56  hey beach
16:30:38  e.g. (defcstruct node (data :int) (next (:pointer node)))
16:30:58  this defines both NODE and it's slot NEXT which is a pointer to node
16:31:10  more like (defcstruct node (data :int) (next :pointer))
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16:31:21  you get my drift
16:32:04  next is then considered a pointer to something, which can be a node
16:33:07  I was able to mutual recursive defenition where two structs have pointers to each other by defining one without the forward referencing slot. defining the second, then changing previous defenition. works great in repl, but my asdf system will bark at citizens.
16:33:12  Xof: anyway, I'm afk.  Thanks for the code update too.  I'll have a chance to look once I get this job application off, etc.
16:33:42  s/citizens/civilians/
16:33:59 jensli [n=jens@b110a.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp
16:35:13  Hi, i need a priority queue, does anyone know where to find one?
16:35:33 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp
16:35:44  take a list an treat it as such ;-)
16:35:52  jensli: this is not a programming question.
16:35:54  push/pop etc.
16:36:04  jensli: try: #pret-a-porter
16:36:05  nonon,
16:36:21  pop + append
16:37:28  cffi-grovel does the right thing?
16:37:36  This is a question  about where to find Lisp libraries.
16:37:47  jensli: cl-containers
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16:38:34  jensli: lisp libraries can be found at cliki.net, common-lisp.net, etc.
16:38:41  I could use pop and merge on a list but it is a slow method. Linear insertation time. (Or am I wrong?)
16:38:56  jensli: ah, you see, you need some customization!
16:39:19  So now it's not just apriority queue, it's with some insertion time complexity constraint...
16:39:22 ivarref [n=ivarref@leia.ifi.uio.no] has joined #lisp
16:39:40  cl-containers has a priority queue implemented using heaps
16:41:10  adeht: fe[nl]ix: cl-containers look promising. Thank you!
16:41:33 Dodek [i=dodek@77-254-47-136.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp
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16:41:43  the much under used (by me) PORTs package has some data structures
16:41:55  hello
16:41:59  The value #'WIKIRCBOT::JOIN-HOOK is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL).
16:41:59     [Condition of type TYPE-ERROR]
16:42:10  why isn't it?
16:42:49  because it's the list '(function wikircbot::...)
16:42:52 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos
16:43:28  DATUM: (FUNCTION WIKIRCBOT::JOIN-HOOK)
16:43:28  EXPECTED-TYPE: (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)
16:43:50  personally i don't think it is.
16:44:08  Good for you! Perhaps you should rewrite the compiler around your understanding of the world.
16:44:09  that's too bad
16:44:19  Dodek: what do you think `(function wikircbot::join-hook)' is?
16:44:33 mozzyb_ [n=mozzyb@168.85-200-128.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp
16:44:47  you have '(#'foo) somewhere where you want '(,#
16:44:49  'foo)
16:44:59  "I reject your reality, and substitute my own"
16:45:06  `(,#'foo), damn it
16:45:18  jsnell, that might be the reason, i'll check
16:45:33  and chandler, there is no need to be rude.
16:46:13  jsnell, yeah, there is
16:46:14  I thought it was kind of rude of you to reject my analysis of your bug due to your personal beliefs
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16:46:38  chandler, I love that quote
16:46:45  Seems a bit like biting the hand that's feeding you.
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16:47:05  tic: (incf mythbusters)
16:47:17  jsnell, well, error message was quite misleading for me, as a person with, i believe, much less experience than most of you
16:47:55  #'foo is for me the function foo and not list containing foo or anything else
16:48:06 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp
16:48:08  or rather, it has been so far
16:48:12  That's unfortune.
16:48:14  Dodek: # would be the function FOO.
16:48:17  Dodek: 
16:48:20  #'foo is how you denote the function foo in source. Evaluated, it tends to produce something like #
16:48:22 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp
16:48:39  now i kinda see it.
16:48:42  If Lisp prints out #'foo, it means "how #'foo is represented in source", which is the same as (FUNCTION FOO)
16:48:45  Dodek: notice the important word in chandler's sentence: _evaluated_
16:48:53 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@248.80-203-57.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp
16:48:55  Dodek: You can inspect the DATUM from within the debugger. The inspector would have told you that it is in fact a list. Try it out, it may help you in future.
16:49:18  Dodek: PI evaluates to 3.1415..., but if Lisp prints out PI, it is printing a symbol, not the numeric value.
16:49:19  (setf *print-newbie* t) ; by default...
16:49:36  It is indeed a bit confusing, but it is fundamental to how Lisp respresents code as data.
16:49:44  and jsnell, you said it was rude of me to deny your analysis
16:49:49  it wasn't intended.
16:50:51  it was due to my awkwardness in the 'express your ideas in foreign language' area.
16:50:55  weird, does that mean 'FOO is (QUOTE FOO) and therefore a list, or am I pushing sophistry to a whole new level?
16:51:08  fusss: It does.
16:51:13  it does, and it has practical consequences
16:51:21  'FOO is a list. 'FOO, when evaluated, returns a symbol.
16:51:21  fusss: you're correct. 'FOO is a list.
16:51:44  woah! live and learn
16:52:13  most all reader macros "are lists", aren't they?
16:52:15  fusss: notice that to evaluate 'FOO with EVAL you have to add a quote: (eval ''FOO)
16:52:28  tic: I don't think that's true, no.
16:52:30  Or you can just give it to the REPL: 'FOO
16:52:31  tic: nope
16:52:32  fusss: Try out (car ''abracadabra)
16:52:36  notably, lots of people write (case foo ('bar ...)), and are then surprised by QUOTE matching that case
16:53:06  tcr: sez QUOTE :-)
16:53:22  fusss: Sure why it does say so?
16:53:23  anyway, i'm grateful to those who helped me.
16:53:33  I prefer to write (QUOTE FOO) to make it clear..
16:53:45  and (FUNCTION FOO) instead of #'FOO
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16:54:18  Fortunately that there are no standardized backquote expansions...
16:54:19  pjb: it is clear to experienced Lisp programmers
16:54:48 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer
16:54:48  Yes, for newbies it's better to write (QUOTE FOO) and (FUNCTION FOO).  They could switch to ' and #' after a year or two.
16:55:01  pjb: I disagree
16:55:28  anyone else hacking on Flash or Gordon?
16:56:21  You make this look like a problem of great intellectual magnitude, even though it isn't. It's a tidbit to be pointed out once and for all.
16:56:32 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos
16:56:33 lde [n=lde@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp
16:57:06  (Except if the novice in question is called gavino. I wouldn't expect him to take this up within two years, though.)
16:57:12  I added a few "actions" to gordon so that now it can marshall actionscript operators, including object creation, function and method calls. In another words, Gordon as a cheap Flash binary-translator :-)
16:57:15  tcr: :-)
16:57:34  gavino is something
16:58:08  tcr, I miss him. haven't been around for a couple of weeks now.
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16:58:23  s/haven't/hasn't/
16:58:26  does he come here too or just cll?
16:58:44  Sometimes, but he's often quickly banned.
16:59:42  come'oooon, the guy is a competent pollster. he finds the weirdest fads from the smallest niche areas and asks questions comparing them to hunchentoot
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17:01:27  Xach: wake up!
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17:03:01  poll question: what sorts of API would you like to see for a flash GUI?
17:03:27  Movie.suckLess();
17:03:29  :)
17:03:30  the CLOS-based types, like CAPI. where you instantiate each GUI element from a class and "contain" them in a layout manager?
17:03:31  That's not a poll, it's an essay question.
17:03:54  or something declarative like a hybrid Tk + CSS?
17:04:33  segv: amen to that! SWF file format is a breeze, but damn, action script has gotten bloated, almost .NETesque!
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17:06:09  good evening everyone
17:06:29  Finally some "animation" (as the French say) here. :)
17:06:34  evening beach
17:06:52 -!- jensli [n=jens@b110a.studby.ntnu.no] has left #lisp
17:07:15  Perhaps it would be a good idea to make a Flash backend for McCLIM?
17:07:30  I was gonna go with CLX, but flash is very rich
17:07:38 tomppa [n=tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp
17:07:45  I looked at CLIM again just for this purpose, but it looks over specified
17:07:59  Now what could that possibly mean?
17:08:22 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:08:26  fusss: you sound like the average Java programmer looking at Lisp.
17:08:33  not at all
17:08:39  do too!
17:08:45  HE CALLED YOU A JAVA PROGRAMMER
17:08:47  what you gonna do about that
17:08:48  it's gonna be hard to fit CLIM event model to flash
17:08:55  stop it!
17:09:25  let me put it this way. Flash is sufficiently rich, but it's undergoing an identity crisis.
17:10:05  if you stick to AS 3.0 AVM2 you get a fairly decent stack-based small-talk like system
17:10:21  OK, I apologize.  You did say "for this purpose", which gets you off the hook.
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17:11:28  trick is, flash generation is batch oriented. Edit,compile, reload-browser. It would be better to have a tiny lisp listener IN flash itself. reading precompiled flash objects in sexp format and let the lisp side marshall stuff to it.
17:13:39  the real question is; is it better to have an "almost complete" lisp that targets flash, or can I get away with using Common Lisp and converting/marshalling all values before they're piped to flash?
17:13:52  fusss: are you talking about client or server side development?
17:14:21  client side. for the server I can call to a Lisp process.
17:15:06  flash SWF files contain both code and data
17:16:33  there ABC byte code in there; I want to generate THAT from lisp. Or have flash compile with a Lisp "interpreter", and have it load remote lisp code (technically, lisp compiled to ABC bytecode, and wrapped in a movie that has only one ABC tag)
17:16:50  Wouldn't the easiest way be compiling a lispy language to AS3, and possibly dynamically loading compiled libraries (or whatever they are called on the flash land) to achieve a repl like environment?
17:17:17  tomppa: you can pretty much do the same hacking on parenscript
17:17:56  not really
17:18:01  but action script is headed towards static-typing, I THINK, with adobe requiring  type specifiers for Action script 3.0
17:18:01  i think
17:18:22  I was just reading some papers about compiling scheme to javascript, which I think is actually a bit trickier
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17:19:14  it's not too hard if you don't care about perf.
17:19:18 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086007.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp
17:19:18  FWIW, Gordon is already a sufficiently flexible binary translator. You can generate your "flash" code as good ole Lisp code, yep :-) and Gordon + CL can convert that straight to binary
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17:20:09  pkhuong, if were are talking about flash, I think performance is of importance.
17:20:23  why do you want javascript when the assembler is already powerful enough? push all the arguments you want on the stack, push their count, push the name of the function you want and run the ActionCallMethod action. Viola :-)
17:21:26  fusss: Do you know any good resources for AVM2 hacking? Lack of information was the main reason I thought about going thru AS3
17:22:54  fusss pasted "Flash actions gordon can support with a few days of hacking." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68430
17:24:12  tomppa: there are few small concepts you need to understand, then you can go ahead and read swf_file_format_spec_v9.pdf to your heart's content
17:24:25  let me write up on the basics while I'm in the mood, will paste in a bit
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17:25:39  of course if you just need some Flex gui support for a CL backend then something similar to Ltk should work
17:25:48  what you wanna do is avoid Adobe developer central thinggie. all is pretty much geared towards selling you the authoring tool.
17:26:24  ltk's "packing" doesn't appeal to me :-S CAPI is Lispy enough, it's good enough, and goddarnit, people like it.
17:26:58 *dlowe* misses ResEdit for GUI building.
17:29:41  the borland tool?
17:30:43 *ahaas* would like to code Flash in CL
17:31:08  I don't need a GUI, though.
17:31:12  if I had to do this all over again, I'd probably hack a JVM that runs on top of AVM2, then use ABCL on top of that :->
17:31:28  lichtblau: sounds like a plan! ;]
17:31:31  <- ha ha, only serious
17:31:43  i know
17:31:45 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit []
17:31:52  hey i'm in berlin this weekend, if youwant to grab a beer
17:31:52  fusss: The Apple tool :)
17:32:38  attila_lendvai: I switched over to stefil on another project. It's quite nice, thank you!
17:32:44 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbda66.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp
17:32:45  (in reality, I'm probably going to throw away my "actionlisp" to flash8 compiler, and do the ltk-like thing, controlling AIR over a local socket from common lisp)
17:32:50  ahaas: use Gordon. And don't bother documenting it once you figure out how it works ;-)
17:33:18  manuel_: oh, too bad.  I'm in Rostock this weekend.
17:33:24  ah ;/
17:33:25  dlowe: nice to hear that! thanks for being one of the early users! :)
17:34:02  attila_lendvai: it's like fiveam except with faster tests and well-behaved with slime
17:34:34  fusss: The Gordon site says it only goes up to Flash 7. I need at least 9.
17:34:39  attila_lendvai: I could be convinced to switch local-time over
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17:35:20  yeah, we used 5am for about half a year. in fact i started working on the ideas behind stefil as a 5am patch, but it was too different, so i didn't want to push it through all the 5am users...
17:35:22  ahaas: the gordon site is a pathalogical LIAR. flash is downward compatible and everything you will be able to do while learning is already done with 7.
17:35:31  actually, Gordon is more like Flash 6
17:35:45  attila_lendvai: stefil kicks ass
17:35:50  extending Gordon is like implementing FFI, you just add stubs for the functions you wanna call
17:36:02  fusss: I need features available in Flash 9.
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17:36:35  ahaas: me too, Xach three, couple other people here 4, 5, 6. I think that makes us a project ;-)
17:36:39  brb, cigarettes
17:36:53  what, _multiple_ cigarettes?
17:37:13  1.5 pack a day :-S
17:37:24  rsynnott: fusss is throughput oriented. You save the time taken to go outside that way
17:37:53  drewc: i'll need to switch back to a recent slime head derivative eventually and make the inspector customizations work there, too. although, it seems like noone is complaining... :)
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17:39:05  attila_lendvai: i don't use most of the fancy slime stuff, i just like the diea of nesting tests, and being able to run both the tests and the assertions at the repl.
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17:39:35  drewc, dlowe: what happens when you inspect the result of a test-run? i guess the normal slime inspector comes up?
17:40:49  attila_lendvai: yeah, just the inspector.
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17:46:00 *Xach* has only dabbled, ahaas is hard core
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17:47:28  I am hard core at fart-based Flash games.
17:48:05  fusss: I hope I didn't sound dismissive. I am very excited by any prospect of bringing Lisp to Flash development.
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17:48:38  back
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17:59:17  Speaking of Flash, anybody know what ever happened to P. Fisk (of the 21st Century Smalltalk/Lisp fame)?
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18:10:26  fusss pasted "Gordon Tutorial (draft)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68433
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18:10:48 -!- little-nick is now known as tomppa^2
18:12:40  tomppa: I need to sort out the official adobe vocabulary first, so not to confuse people
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18:14:16  Is it necessary to support any other resources than bytecode since everything can be always dynamically loaded from server?
18:15:03  tomppa^2: There are a few reasons why you would want assets compiled into the swf.
18:15:06 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp
18:15:22  other than aesthetic?
18:15:41  aesthetic in what sense?
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18:16:09  For one, a single swf will load much faster than if you had to make numerous requests for additional assets.
18:16:35  Second, there is an issue where playing mp3 files is not the same if they aren't compiled.
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18:17:08  "much faster" for relative values of much
18:17:40  I wasn't aware of the mp3 issue... that sounds like a fairly good reason
18:17:43  Enough to make a perceived and annoying difference to users.
18:18:04  if you have a 1 second latency and 5 requests, you can shave off 5 seconds... which can be all or naught depending on how much it takes to load totally...
18:18:26  Well, I said "numerous" and I was thinking more on the order of 80+ assets.
18:19:15  most of the more complex flash games that I have played still take a while to load, a wouldn't personally notice a few extra seconds
18:19:17  then sure; I've got 200ms latency to US... 16 seconds are big...
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18:21:54  (If it saves you an hour to waste 2 seconds to the user, you're being inefficiend when you have more than 1800 users ;P)
18:22:00  *efficient
18:22:07  *inefficient
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18:23:16  Yeah, it also matters if you are paying by the request (e.g., S3).
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18:29:38  Tordek: for many developers, the time of the user is unimportant
18:30:00  Thus, we have things like HTTP and HTML in the first place, even though they are needlessly inefficient.
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18:33:32  dlowe pasted "function-trace-bind sbcl implementation and demo" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68434
18:34:10  ahaas: hey, no dismission taken (gr?)
18:34:22  developer time is often more expensive than machine time.
18:34:34  minion: tell tic about saving lives
18:34:34  tic: direct your attention towards saving lives: ``So if you make it boot ten seconds faster, you've saved a dozen lives. That's really worth it, don't you think?'' http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Saving_Lives.txt
18:35:27  chandler, heh.
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18:36:57  i want to have case-insensitive hash table. can i have a hashtable with #'string-equal equality test or do i have to downcase every key in order to get it working?
18:37:13  :test 'equalp
18:37:18  Dodek: EQUALP will compare strings in a case-insensitive fashion.
18:37:31  will it? good to know.
18:37:35  thank you.
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18:42:20  what is the default input type for OPEN? CHARACTER or STRING?
18:42:42  That doesn't make any sense.
18:44:06  gaah
18:44:27  if I don't specify :element-type, what is the default?
18:44:39  clhs open
18:44:40  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm
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18:45:00  fusss: :DEFAULT
18:45:15  no, CHARACTER
18:45:20  "the symbol :default (denoting an implementation-dependent default external file format that can accomodate at least the base characters)"
18:45:35  jsnell: oops.
18:46:25  it's really great that there's a :default element-type too, but it's not the default
18:47:29  yes, I forgot that :default wasn't the default
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18:48:27 <_3b> malune: cl-opengl-thomas was merged with main cl-opengl a while ago, so no need to use -thomas on windows anymore
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18:51:30  _3b: ahh, i wondered what happened to it
18:51:48 <_3b> malune: also, GL uses column-major matrices
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18:52:43  pkhuong: nice i will add that, thanks
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18:53:32 <_3b> malune: and loop for i to (1- ...) -> loop for i below ...
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18:55:09  fusss annotated #68433 with "Gordon Tutorial (draft 2)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68433#1
18:55:42 <_3b> fusss: s/defenition/definition/ ?
18:55:47  _3b: hmm the column major stuff is confusing me, since loading a contiguous array in opengl stored as row major works fine.
18:56:37  _3b: I'm getting into that. Content first, grammar, style and spelling later.
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18:57:16  I'm afraid by the time I'm done with this, people will realize that Gordon is just a glorified stack VM ;-)
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18:58:03  oh, you can create animations for sure .. right after you write them in reverse polish assembler!
18:58:16 <_3b> malune: well, the gl spec and docs are pretty clear about it being column major, don't think cl-opengl does anything to change that
18:58:18 <_3b> http://www.khronos.org/opengles/documentation/opengles1_0/html/glLoadMatrix.html
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18:58:55 <_3b> fusss: fair enough, that was just what caught my eye while reading it :)
18:59:20  _3b: interesting, thanks I will change that.
18:59:40  brb, supplicating to nicotine overlord!
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19:04:03 <_3b> malune: migfht want to go into more detail about what goes in which matrix, specifically that camera goes in modelview not projection, since that seems to be a common beginner confusion
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19:06:30  _3b: thats a good point. i actually made a couple of extra sections detailing how the view frustum & persperctive / orthographic projection works as well. I should probably add that too at some point.
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19:09:31  Man, Lisp50 looks like it's going to be awesome.
19:09:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp
19:09:55  sellout: no kidding .. i really wish i could go.
19:10:23  mesa too
19:10:42  sellout, though it is more Lisp50-to-now and not Lisp-now-to-next-50
19:10:42  lispm, memo from lukego_: thanks a million! in VMware fusion 2.0 I could "disable keyboard mapping" and now it's just right.
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19:11:14  hm. that "disable keyboard mapping" thing didn't actually seem to work for me
19:11:40  at least for what I wanted, which was to make cmd not act like a windows key
19:11:41  lispm: Well, Rich Hickey will be there for the look ahead :)
19:11:58  that's more like 'now'
19:12:01  lispm: not entirely true.. rich .. bah what he said
19:12:19  and we still don't have ML style pattern matching! (muuuahahahaha!)
19:12:27  lispm: Umm, so what, you want high school kids to be giving talks about what they think would be cool?
19:12:39  fusss: and still no algol syntax
19:12:45  or c syntax
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19:13:00  sellout: ;-)
19:13:16  lispm: I think Rich is a good example of someone who's not attached to the past, happy to break tradition. And that Clojure is just the current state of the move forward.
19:13:27  _3b: how should I credit you on the tutorial for correcting some mistakes?
19:13:40  (or rather, his view of the move forward)
19:14:03  fusss: Are you familiar with MTASC? I used that for Flash before AVM2. It would replace the Actionscript bytecode in a pre-existing swf, so designers could design in the Flash IDE and then hand the swf off to developers.
19:14:03 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit []
19:14:12 <_3b> malune: _3b on #lisp is fine :)
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19:14:34  sellout: sure don't miss the explanations what happened on some day in 1959 in the evening
19:14:44  fusss: If I could code in Lisp and inject it that way, that would be ideal for my particular use case.
19:15:30  lispm: Well, apparently there are a lot of people who still need to hear those ... "doomed to repeat" and all that.
19:15:33  never heard of MTASC, but I have an idea of what you can do
19:15:43 benny [n=benny@i577A0DDB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp
19:15:48  Hello. I have to represent a a grid of points using Lisp and traverse them using A* search. I was thinking to implement it using Graph Search. Can you give any pointers where I can find a similar search in Lisp?
19:16:05  sellout: though I find it funny that JonL was 'supervising' RMS
19:17:01 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp
19:17:50  man, is there no way for a poor freelance developer to attend Lisp50 without forking over $360?
19:17:55  ahaas: let's put "actionscript" aside talk AVM2. Look at the opcode list, it's plenty rich. If you can generate ABC byte-code, it should be straight forward to add the code to an existing SWF file. What you will need is to somehow export all the character IDs from the design side of things, and make them accessible to the AVM2 assembler/compiler.
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19:18:43  I really think we can extend gordon actions to generate AVM2 byte-code.
19:18:46 <_3b> hmm, all this talk of flash stuff makes me want to work on my avm2 compiler some more
19:18:57  tritchey: Is that the single-day price?
19:19:05  yeah
19:19:15  unless you are a student
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19:20:05  fusss: You lost me with the "character IDs."
19:20:43  tritchey: Are you near Nashville?
19:20:49  fusss: But, I don't know much about the bytecode.
19:20:54  everything you draw on the screen has to have an ID number. In order for you action script code to "animate" you bitmaps, shapes and lines, or stop and play you sounds and videos, you have to pass a character ID on the stack.
19:20:58  I'm bummed - Nashville is (relatively speaking) close, but $360 is a bit much to throw on top of gas, hotel and food if you don't have a company or institution picking up the tab.
19:21:08  sellout: I'm about 5 hours away
19:21:23  by car
19:21:28  Ah, ok, then too far to spend Sunday rock climbing ;)
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19:21:44  no-one?
19:21:54  fusss: Ok, so what's the challenge then? Matching the library ID's with their index in the string table?
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19:23:11  you let your developer create the flash file with all the bells and whistles, but just get the numeric ID for each "asset". Everything on the stage will have an ID. Flash autogenerates those, but it takes descipline to assign those by hand
19:23:15 <_3b> Serva: what's the problem? 'grid of points' and 'a*' both seem pretty well defined...
19:23:39  fusss: you do know HaXe?
19:23:49  for example, if you can get a file like '((PLAYER_HEAD . 1) (PLAYER_TORSO . 2) ...)
19:23:50  sellout: unless rock-climbing is some euphemism for hard-drinking, I doubt you want to see my lard-ass struggling to pull itself up some cliff face.
19:24:46  that being said, I'd be happy to take in the view up-top, and have beers ready for when you finish your ascent.
19:25:04  I was hoping to find 1+ OOPSLA attendees to climb with, but as it draws near, I might have to find some non-geeky locals.
19:25:17  on the assembler side, we can save things like (push 1) (move object), which means move the head in stack assembler. On the lisp side you would generate stack assembler mnemonics, inject the resulting byte sequence into an ABC tag
19:25:36  s/save/say/
19:26:13  in Gordon, this would look like (add-tag movie (make-tag-do-action :records (list (make-action-record-push :value "0"))))
19:26:27  fusss: I thought that everything in Flash has a string identifier, or you can't access it through code, and that name is in the string table. I'll have to read up on ABC. I know Xach did some disassembling, though.
19:26:30  (add-tag m (make-tag-do-action :records (list (make-action-record-push :value "MoveObject"))))
19:26:34  _3b, I am still a beginner in lisp and the programming world. I am looking for some pointers where a simple search such as a graph-based breadth-first search is done using lisp. I want to look at the approach first, and then make it A* search.
19:26:38  (add-tag m (make-tag-do-action :records (list (make-action-record-call-function))))
19:27:20  ahaas: the string IDs are on the authoring side. Flash is lean. On the binary side it's all integers
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19:27:47  fusss: That's not true. Flash keeps the entire string name of everything. It's not efficient at all in that sense.
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19:28:06  fusss: Sorry, not everything -- not local variable names.
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19:28:45  fusss: I'm assuming that the bytecode uses the index that maps into the string table.
19:28:46  those you can get with GetVariable and SetVariable, I just added the former to gordon
19:28:52  yeah
19:29:43 <_3b> Serva: ah, might see if you can find a copy of paip (in a nearby library maybe), it seems to have a chapter on searching, or just look at the code from it : http://norvig.com/paip/search.lisp
19:29:56  Serva: this seems like a sophisticated task for a beginning programmer. This wouldn't by chance happen to be homework, would it?
19:30:09  fusss pasted "Incomplete flash loader" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68436
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19:31:02  chandler, it is a homework problem
19:31:24  and its not by chance, btw
19:31:27  this just does the header, but once you go past that, you're at the first frame and you can read it up to frame-length bytes. You can decode the frame-header to see if it's byte code, and you can inject your new bytecode in its place
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19:32:34  _3b, thanks i'll have a look at the book
19:32:41  Serva: if you're in the positition of learning 'Lisp and classical AI' then PAIP is just the book for you
19:32:47  fusss: You'd also have to modify the necessary constant tools as well.
19:32:57  sorry, constant tables
19:33:24  fusss: er wait, that's all in the ABC frame, isn't it?
19:33:59  yes, an ABC frame is just another frame, except it contains byte code to be interpreted by flash player
19:34:33  it could have been an audio "frame", and it would be interpreted as MP3 or whatever codec
19:35:02  I'm familiar with the file format, but not the actionscript bytecode.
19:35:58  But, this is moving off topic. I'm going to check out Gordon as soon as I get some free time.
19:35:58  the action script byte code doesn't live in a world of its own, it actually sees objects.
19:36:10  _3b, I have got an ebook version of the book. There is an entire chapter, like you said. :)
19:36:30  gordon is not there yet, lol :-P look at the actions.lisp file and you will get a pretty good idea on how to add the useful stuff.
19:36:46  fusss: Cool. Thanks for the info!
19:36:54  np, cheers!
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19:40:44  fusss: I wrote a very modest swf obfuscator in Lisp, btw.
19:41:37  hard to do, i would think
19:41:46  It's not hard to make a crappy one.
19:41:56  good point ;-)
19:42:40  I think it could be improved if I parsed the bytecode, but I haven't gotten that far. Xach did some work with disassembling it, but I haven't had a chance to dig into it.
19:43:01  maybe you can create a decryptor for your assets and make that the first frame. and as it runs it would be other frames and decrypt/descramble your visible assets. sorta of a binary packer.
19:43:06 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp
19:43:16  fusss: How relevant is Gordon actually, would it be better to start from the beginning or improve it?
19:43:50  fusss: Mine only renames identifiers. It doesn't do anything clever.
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19:44:05  gordon takes care of the most important parts; bit fiddling, packing and marshalling. if you have time to deal with integers sizes, signs, endianness and other crap, go for it.
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19:45:13  the stack byte code is fixed-length (none of the variable length x86 instructions, for example) it should be a matter of lookup table
19:46:00  sounds remarkably simple
19:46:55  A list ((S 1 2 *) (* 3 4 G)) having first inner list on top of second inner list can be viewed like a grid, where S is the starting point and G is the goal point. and we can reach G by following a path S->1->3->4->G, also S->1->2->4-G. Does this make any sense
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19:47:45  yeah, it looks just like a homework problem
19:47:46  where * represents a node that is inaccessible
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19:48:54 *_3b* would start from scratch, just due to gordon's license :p
19:49:14  GPL?
19:49:18  dlowe, i already said it above. it is a homework problem. And I am trying to do it on my own.
19:49:29 <_3b> fusss: yeah, something like that
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19:49:56  Serva: yes, it makes sense, they're talking about a list of lists representing a 2d field. in Common Lisp it would be more efficient and idiomatic to use a 2d array though.
19:50:22 <_3b> fusss: also, aren't at least some values in the bytecode variable length?
19:50:50  2-D array where we can represent "." instead of numbers... ("*" remains as they are)?
19:50:51  yes sir, there are variable length BIT arrays :-)
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19:51:13  but I write the "byte" code in Common Lisp actually
19:51:13  Serva: yes, lisp doesn't restrict element types like that
19:51:22  ((S . . *) (* . . G))
19:51:28  Serva: that's not valid, though
19:51:35  so . means accessible and * otherwise
19:51:48 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44F47.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
19:51:49  an unquoted . has a particular meaning in lists, so you have to use \. a symbol or "." a string.
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19:52:02  i know that .. yes
19:52:11  i'll use a string "."
19:52:20  ahaas: forgot to tell you, you can create AVM2 assembler with Gordon, there is a little trick
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19:53:23  okay, i'll pass on the structure of the problem as a pre-defined list in the same way.
19:53:49  now, i have to think about adjacency lists in lisp.
19:53:59  Serva: I would suggest waiting until you have a question to say anything. #lisp has a short temper.
19:54:43 -!- mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-018-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
19:56:50  alright, is there a beginner lisp channel?
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19:57:21  Serva: in general, we're happy to help, provided that the question doesn't show an extreme lack of effort, but we don't want to hear the tale of your work.
19:57:43  I can understand.
19:57:52  (I'm not speaking for myself, but my estimation of the general opinion)
19:59:42  I've heard of #lispcafe and #cl-gardeners, but I've never been there myself.
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20:01:16 petere_ [n=peter@209-6-234-57.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp
20:01:49  but it's perfectly fine to say here "I have some really ugly code, what should I do to it?" or "how do I turn a list into an array?" or "check out my new thingie written in lisp"
20:01:52  Does anyone have a example of using cl-containers for just a basic tree?
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20:02:46  Yes, got the point. I was trying to think aloud.
20:02:46  kpreid: both are effectively dead
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20:09:40  fusss pasted "How to call flash functions from Gordon/Lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68443
20:10:03  Serva: you can defer thinking about stuff, by abstracting it.  Don't think about adjacency lists just right now. Instead, define functions to manipulate them. (defun get-adjacency (graph node) ...) --> some-adjacency-list ; (defun add-vertex (graph node follow) ...) ; (defun in-adjacency-list (adjacency-list follow-node) ...) --> boolean ; etc...
20:10:32  Serva: of course, if you need to call these functions right now, you can easily implement them with plain lisp lists, and think about optimization later.
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20:12:49  ahaas: see here on how to avoid writing an assembler ;-)  http://paste.lisp.org/display/68443
20:13:20  fusss: That's really not what I was looking for when I said I want to code Flash in Lisp? ;)
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20:13:28  s/?/.
20:13:39  hahahaha
20:14:02  I know, but you have DEFMACRO (*bada bing*!)
20:14:57  all that code boils to less than 50 bytes though :-)
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20:18:44 <_3b> fusss: more fun to write an assembler/compiler :p
20:19:19 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:19:31  or in this case, a well-crafter search and replace editor macro
20:19:49  s/crafter/craftered/
20:19:57 <_3b> nah, don't think that would be enough
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20:21:02 <_3b> compiling stuff like http://paste.lisp.org/display/60655/#3 is as far as i got though
20:22:57  quite impressive, I'd say
20:23:04  pjb, thanks - i'll have a design in my mind within few mins, or so i hope.
20:25:08  _3b: neat, but that's svg i think. me like the two links at the top.
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20:25:42 <_3b> fusss: annotation 3 is flash
20:26:19 <_3b> compiles to http://www.3bb.cc/tmp/roots.swf
20:26:34  I could give you and OpenGL one if you want. (Or pseudo OpenGL since it uses Vecto do the actual graphics)
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20:27:12 petere [n=peter@209-6-234-57.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp
20:27:16  yes you're right! ^_^
20:27:41 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp
20:28:08  what's your backend? you generate raw bytes or action script?
20:28:20 <_3b> biggest problem is deciding how close to CL to try to make it, and how to map flash concepts to CL ones
20:28:25 <_3b> raw bytes
20:29:04  if you wanna go straight to AS 3.0, you pretty much have a prototype-based OOP VM
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20:29:29  on the CL side you will need CLOS style-classes
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20:30:17 <_3b> yeah, multiple values are a hassle too
20:30:44  the object/property paradigm, which includes both slots and methods doesn't mesh with the CLOS object system
20:30:45 <_3b> and the namespace stuff doesn't map quite right either if i remember correctly
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20:31:22  why don't you just scrap the whole CL and settle with an easily translatable core Lispy Thingy
20:31:34  best I think to flatten the AS object heirarchy and name spaces. all important classes would be given a CLOS wrapper.
20:32:03  It would have the benefit that you could also implement it in CL/OpenGL for easy and interactive development
20:32:05  tomppa: mainly because the rest of your application probably runs on hunchentoot and elephant ;-)
20:32:56  the AS event propagation is heavily tied to the class heirarchy too
20:33:03 <_3b> main problem with not having CL as a goal, is that it leave a lot more design work open :)
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20:33:25 <_3b> have to actually think about things instead of just looking at how CL does it
20:33:42 <_3b> but probably will start with that anyway, and build up CL from there
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20:43:06  the drawing primitives are straightforward to tanslate imo, it's the new GUI elements and event handling that might be a problem
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20:47:55  hi _3b, fusss: are you guys starting experimenting with Lisp to AS/flash compiler or there's something already published you are playing with?
20:48:43 <_3b> puchacz: i started one a while back, haven't worked on it in a while though
20:49:27  _3b: did you publish what you got, or more a private toy?
20:49:57 <_3b> private so far, it is a big mess of randomly tacking bits on as i figure stuff out :)
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20:50:32 <_3b> talking about it it is making me want to work on it some more though, so might try to get something releasable done
20:50:41  i'm playing with Gordon and just messin' around
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20:51:29  fusss, _3b: I know nothing about flash, I might need to look into this soon, but I know it is internally javascript based (correct me if I am wrong). if so personally I use parenscript and I am very happy with it.
20:51:40  fusss, thanks, I'll have look into Gordon.
20:52:28 <_3b> puchacz: actionscript is similar to javascript, but it compiles to bytecode which is what actually goes in the .swf file, and i am trying to go directly to bytecode
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20:53:12 <_3b> compiling to actionsctipt with parenscript works from what i hear, but you still need an external tool to compile that to bytecode/.swf file
20:53:25 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-042-098-200.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
20:53:29  IMO Actionscript 3 is a step towards Java
20:53:43  _3b: has anybody got examples of using parenscript to generate actionscript?
20:54:01  it's not actually very bad, but I haven't really used it that much, so...
20:54:08 *_3b* hasn't really looked at actionscript much, started learning flash directly with th ebytecode :p
20:54:29  One of the worst things about Flash is that most Flash devs look to Java as the goal and forsake a lot of Flash's more dynamic features.
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20:55:33 <_3b> puchacz: don't know of any, think i've seen it mentioned on the parenscript lists though
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20:56:29  _3b, cool, it might let me approach flash with some success finally :-)
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20:58:48 <_3b> hmm, maybe i should try using flash for the stuff i'm working on now instead of javascript, so i have an excuse to work on my avm2 compiler :)
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21:00:04  _3b: I am using parenscript with ExtJS, it works, but not the most pleasant GUI building experience.
21:00:47 <_3b> UI part is actually pretty trivial for me, since i'm just making a flashcard app
21:02:17  _3b: question/answer?
21:02:25  for learning stuff?
21:02:29 <_3b> yeah
21:03:06 <_3b> most of the interesting code is in the scheduling/prioritizing of cards
21:03:38 <_3b> think this will be my 4th or 5th try at getting a setup i like :p
21:03:58  _3b: priv? I am interested in these things too :-)
21:05:32 <_3b> don't know that my usage style would be generally useful, it is gratuitously web based so that i can use it from my n800
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21:26:54  yo salex
21:27:11  hey Xach
21:27:51  how goes?
21:28:04 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:28:07  not too shabbily
21:28:50  salex: i've found that i can't do much with "raw" vecto. i have a library in an unpublishable state that provides objects for points, rectangles, and a bunch of convenient operations on them.
21:29:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
21:29:20  i need to clean it up and share it. i think probably others do the same thing.
21:29:37  that doesn't surprise me
21:29:57  i thought it was neat how easy it was to go vecto<->cl-pdf
21:30:06  fwiw, Xach, even the raw Vecto was quite nice it was combined with OpenGL
21:30:35  could probably abstract that out.  But afterall, what I was doing there is basically (very) specialized typesetting, the low leve stuff is about right
21:31:25  given a few spare cycles, i might make something more capable along those lines.  Atm it's quick hack/demo, really
21:32:09  salex: i have a function that can do some DWIM alignment of multiple rows of text with respect to a rectangle
21:32:22  like centered, right-aligned, left aligned, atop, below, top, bottom, etc
21:32:42  yeah, i could see building up a bunch of those sorts of utils
21:32:42  it's those sorts of things i need again and again and don't like to do from scratch
21:32:51  is there any better way to have four ifs, i want them to execute one by one
21:32:57  i assume there is a bunch of that in cl-typesetting, too
21:32:59  Serva: COND is sort of like that.
21:33:03  not nested ifs
21:33:26  salex: the cl-pdf thing is no accident. i took it as initial inspiration, and in general followed a PDF-like or PS-like set of operations.
21:33:37  yeah, i assumed that was the case
21:33:42  Xach, I need the results from each of those if conditions
21:34:04  Xach: dunno how generally useful it'd be, but if I extend this stuff I'll probably abstract that layer
21:34:10  Serva: PROGN?
21:34:16  since both outputs would be useful for different things
21:34:54  sellout: i forgive you your cold words towards allagash white. the last fourpack i got was a little off. i hope their quality control isn't slipping! it's pretty great on tap (everywhere around here has it on tap, too)
21:35:02 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp
21:35:03  drewc, H4ns: a quick note: darcsweb is broken on cl.net
21:35:22  (ignore me if it's known)
21:35:32  Xach: I'll give it another try, next time I'm in Maine.
21:36:16  Serva: how are you imaging something `better', if they must evaluate serially anyway?
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21:37:03  Being a beginner,I thought there may be another function in lisp to handle sequential conditions..
21:37:42  i don't think i really understand what you're envisioning, is all
21:38:17  sorry, if I sounded confused.
21:39:46  What online lisp tutorioal would you recomend?
21:40:09  minion: tell Ifur about the dead sexy book
21:40:10  Ifur: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
21:40:26  oh? :S
21:40:35  great
21:41:24  Ifur: have your programmed before?
21:41:26  minion: tell Ifur about PCL
21:41:26  Ifur: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
21:41:38  fusss, know java
21:41:52  the above book should get you started
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21:42:30  but there is a much gentler one http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html
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21:43:11  thanks!
21:43:26  thought it might be too gentle, it depends. If you like then go with it
21:43:38  PCL is pretty gentle too, but assumes a assumes a small amount of programming experience
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21:45:10  and I don't think Introduction to Symbolic Computation is quite up to date, there are a few bits about packages at least that wont work with modern CLs
21:45:22  i never get bored by something hard, too easy on the other hand.
21:45:48  beach: around?
21:46:02  I really enjoyed the Gentle book when I was a learning
21:46:12  Ifur, then read both of them, they are both good books
21:46:19  Ifur: well, it also really depends what you want to achieve.
21:47:28  pass a introductory course for lisp to begin with, then possibly program AI related things.
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21:49:17  minion: tell Ifur about cltl2
21:49:18  Ifur: please look at cltl2: "Common Lisp the Language, 2nd ed" is a book by Guy Steele that describes the state of Common Lisp as it was partway through the ANSI process. http://www.cliki.net/cltl2
21:49:33  Ifur: if you're interested in diving into a deeper end of the pool :-)
21:49:54 -!- zejonaner [n=zejonane@uahosting-0.merezha.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:50:14  PCL is an up-to-date, how-to-get-things done in the language, sort of book.  Won't teach you anything about AI.   PAIP is also nice and has some historical AI stuff, worth a read.    Intro to Symb has some nice bits but is dated in places.
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21:51:31  I have plenty of others courses that teach specific AI algorithms etc... so thats not an issue
21:51:34 -!- sotyrot [n=sotyrot@uahosting-0.merezha.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:51:35  something like SICP won't teach you much about practical in's and outs of a language, but will teach you much about writing programs.  CLTL2 for more CL depth.  AMOP to expand your mind a a bit about object systems
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21:52:13  Ifur: yes, but PAIP is a recommended book regardless of the AI stuff.  It's a nice intro, and as a bonus you'll see some related implementations
21:52:32  ah, cool
21:52:42  after all, lisp is a pretty natural language for expressing these things
21:52:54 sovubysoh [n=sovubyso@uahosting-0.merezha.net] has joined #lisp
21:52:56  which is why it was so strongly associated with AI in the beginnings
21:53:07  yeah
21:53:35 -!- tomppa [n=tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has quit ["Leaving"]
21:53:38  however, AI as it relates to linguistics, which the early attempts of AI revolved heavily around.
21:53:54  but where do i find palp?
21:54:29  minion: tell Ifur about PAIP
21:54:54  or don't
21:55:03  have a look here:  http://norvig.com/paip.html
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21:56:04  nwo i have plenty of things to read
21:56:06  your point about linguistics is off the mark:  lisp is very expressive, which helps in any area of machine learning/AI
21:56:10  as seen on TV
21:56:11  lol
21:56:29  the actual history of it is somewhat of irrelevent that way
21:56:34  PAIP: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I?
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21:56:50  salex, today it is, yes.. but the way lisp is "natural" as i understand comes from the use in linguistics.
21:57:24  no, it's quite `natural'  in terms of it's use in computation.
21:57:42  (not exclusively so)
21:58:10  which makes it a nice language for expressing complex things, and for noodling about in.  i.e., research code.
21:58:30  anyway, read, have fun :)
21:58:35  yes, thats what ive been told =)
21:58:48  prolog is also fun in that regard, and yeah, thanks for the help =)
21:59:36  Serva pasted "get-neighbors-info" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68457
21:59:51  its giving me an error for void variable F
22:00:43  I don't think a Lisp system uses the word "void"
22:00:44  That's because F is not false
22:00:50  sorry, got that
22:00:57  T should have been 'T
22:01:17  no, t is a predefined symbol
22:01:28  truth values are T and NIL in common lisp
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22:03:26  what is your graph representation? nested lists?
22:04:30  (setq graph '((S "." "." "*") ("*" "." "." G)))
22:04:46  constant no.s of rows and columns
22:04:52  in each row
22:05:13  constant no. of columns in each row*
22:05:35  Serva: where to start?  If that's true, why not represent as an array?
22:05:36 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out]
22:05:41  why 1-based count?
22:05:45  don't use setq
22:05:59  Yeah, as you can see, 1-based counting makes everything more complex.
22:06:01  i need top, down, left, right neighbors
22:06:06  you were lookoing for the function "push"
22:06:37  salex: it's homework and Serva should only use what he is taught of the language so far
22:06:52  do you really need to cons these up?  you're lookoing for boundaries...
22:06:57  fusss: ah. possible.
22:07:22  fusss, its not like that
22:07:42  they cant possibly teach each and every function known in lisp
22:08:20  ah, don't misunderstand.   I meant, use setf not setq in practice
22:08:40  *and* what you really wanted was push.  which is hardly an obscure function :)
22:08:51  i tried that already
22:08:57  did not work
22:09:00  you tried what already?
22:09:33  Serva annotated #68457 with "push function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68457#1
22:09:49  didn't graham say PUSH wasn't required to be destructive? IIRC, he recommended something like (setf place (push item place))
22:10:00  which is funny lookin'
22:10:25  Whether he said that or not, it is untrue.
22:10:48  cons gave me ((((nil . F) . T) . F) . T) for obvious reasons - after i got to know the exact definition
22:10:50  Serva: you're doing it wrong
22:11:12  salex, the order for push?
22:11:14  push item place -> new value
22:11:15  fusss: doubtful
22:11:17  ah
22:11:28  Serva: don't you have documentation?
22:11:35  also... all my other points :P
22:11:54  how are you using the output of this funtion?
22:12:09  was it pushnew then?
22:12:15  brb, fetching reference
22:12:29  I will pass it on back to the calculate-h-g-n value function
22:12:45  to calculate those .. for each of the neighbors
22:13:02  but why?  you're just looking for boundaries, right?
22:13:20  i don't see why you are consing up a list of them
22:13:32  also, why are you using 'T  and 'F  ?????
22:13:40  (T F T F)
22:13:54  will tell me .. that only top and left neighbors exist
22:14:01  yes, i know
22:14:23  and based on that information, i'll only calculate the h-g-n values for those only
22:14:30  hwy are you introding 'F into the role that hte language uses nil for?
22:14:43  and I know you are checking against boundaries
22:14:52  what I don't knwo is why you are doing it this way?
22:15:04  just test if it exists in the other function (call a predicate)
22:15:09  if 'F doesn't sound intuitive I can replace that with nil
22:15:34  why cons up a list of them and then take the list apart to figure out if they exist or not?
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22:16:11  you mean while calculating h-g-n values.. i should do that
22:16:12  Xach: I stand corrected, it was not push but nconc. Onlisp, page 31.
22:16:16  why not a function that tells you that directly?
22:16:27  fusss: right, that's a very different thign
22:16:37  (because of the "n")
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22:17:49  Serva: use nil for false, like the language does.  count from 0, not 1.
22:17:53  good point there salex, i'll check then n there
22:18:20  if these graphs are represented as dense and 2d, stick them in an array
22:18:24  replacing 'F with nil
22:18:29 -!- nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
22:18:37  its always 2d
22:18:46  and always dense?
22:18:55  umm.. worst case yes
22:19:04  then it's a matrix.  why use lists?
22:19:13  best case, could be 4 rows with 7 columns
22:19:14  unless it's sparse and big, i mean
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22:19:33  or if the dimensions change
22:19:40  anyway, i'm off
22:20:03  i'll have a look at the arrays now
22:21:15  and stop counting from 1  !
22:21:19  ok, really gone
22:21:22  bbiaw
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22:22:10 *fusss* just finished his useless matrix package
22:23:54  what is people's take on error checking like the assert in the below pasted function?
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22:24:38  fusss pasted "better way to check argument types? check-type?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68458
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22:31:54  fusss: see check-type
22:31:59  clhs check-typ
22:32:00  Sorry, I couldn't find anything for check-typ.
22:32:04  clhs check-typ
22:32:05  Sorry, I couldn't find anything for check-typ.
22:32:06  clhs check-type
22:32:06  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm
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22:32:16 *drewc* has 'e' issues.
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22:33:10  fusss: oh wait .. that's not what you want
22:33:17  drewc: first lisp on lines, and now you're dropping E? you need professional help!
22:33:47  antifuchs: These things are a little more accepted in Vancouver :P
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22:35:23  no more healthy than everywhere else (:
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22:43:30  but always a good time to roll
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22:45:54  fusss: http://dropoff.org/ujrz/avm2 has an example from my disassembler
22:46:08  I am not sure how to implement the function to calculate h-value for a node in my A* search. I mean consider a scenario that I am on 4th depth from the root node and still searching for the goal. Without any information about the goal distance from that node, how do I calculate the h-value for that node.
22:46:36  The node structure will be like this. (defstruct (node (:type list)) value depth g-value)
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22:47:13  the node will always have the depth-level and g-value information within itself
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22:47:50  Xach: neat0
22:48:08  it even has labels
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22:48:56  how are you calculating the labels? two passes?
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22:49:16 <_3b> wonder if i got around to writing a disassembler in mine last time i was messing with it
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22:52:31  fusss: all jump targets in avm2 bytecode have an explicit label
22:52:47  fusss: if they're backwards, that is
22:53:17  we really need a flash gui toolkit :-S
22:54:09  you guys thinks it's better to see what's out there and make lispy APIs for clone them? i want capi on flash, but something easier might be better
22:55:01 <_3b> http+flash backend for mcclim would be fun :)
22:55:54  I can buy a GUI for Flash. I want to be able to code for AVM2 in Lisp.
22:56:46  capi man, capi (contain (make-instance 'my-gui-element)) doesn't get any simple than that. then define event handling declaretively (make-instance 'button :on-click #'button-click :on-hover ...)
22:56:56 <_3b> or an entire clim on flash, but that would probably require a lot more work on the lisp->flash compiler
22:57:30  My Flash work also has almost zero use for GUI toolkits, but I don't speak for everyone.
22:57:57 <_3b> yeah, GUI toolkits are probably relatively low priority for me too
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23:00:24  i have never seen a clim example less than a page long
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23:06:37 <_3b> cool, looks like i do have a disassembler :)
23:09:43 <_3b> now i just need to remember how avm2/flash stuff works again :p
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23:13:14  somefing like this, i want http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dialerfr8.png
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23:14:37 <_3b> how much of that is missing from the flash APIs?
23:15:07  the layout containers, IIRC
23:15:23  with flash it's all absolute positioning, but i could be wrong
23:15:37  Most of the toolkit stuff is in Flex.
23:16:03  And that's a set of Actionscript libraries.
23:16:23  yeah, and flex has been creeping into flash. AS 3.0 is uproaching java in size.
23:20:22  notice the above picture, capi is running under clisp ;-)
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23:27:23  http://paste.lisp.org/display/68462 .. the string concatenation operator in Postmodern seems odd .. or maybe i'm missing something (?)
23:29:06 <_3b> the 3rd one you mean?
23:29:42  the 3rd one, using a raw sql-string, is correct as far as i know
23:30:13 <_3b> 2nd one is a function call with 2 args, and null string for cuntion name
23:30:19 <_3b> *function name
23:32:03 <_3b> (at least i think that is what it is trying to do, not sure why it returns a string)
23:32:25  || is the string concatenation operator in Postgresql
23:32:46 <_3b> try :\|\| instead of :|| ?
23:33:12  that worked .. lol
23:33:18  thanks
23:33:46  ..i guess it kinda makes sense
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23:36:07 <_3b> yeah, cl reader eats the || if you don't escape it :)
23:36:51 <_3b> though i guess postmodern could just assume empty keywords were intended to be ||
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23:46:58  hey #lisp,  how can i export a parameter from package ?
23:48:39  this is sad, haven't had a single meal all day!
23:48:46  gotta go
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23:49:13  kij: you export symbols from packages
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23:49:31  http://l1sp.org/xach/project-howto has a little example
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23:51:31  how is *logfile-directory* defined ?
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23:55:31  kij: Most likely with DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER.
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23:57:34  My bad.  it is working as expected. Thanks alot
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