00:00:27 Soul_man [n=knute@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:20 H4ns: Yeah, I would not give up though :( Maybe first I develop it with threads or something and make it works. And I will try to use event-driven things after that. 00:01:33 H4ns: Thanks a lot for your many advices. I appreciate it. 00:02:39 tomoyuki28jp: it is usually not easy to convert something that is written with implicit i/o scheduling by threads to be event oriented. a little advance planning can make the conversion much easier. 00:03:21 H4ns: ic.. 00:03:51 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 00:04:07 H4ns: I was searching for Clozure cl because I didn't know what that it. It also looks nice. I didn't know ITA use that. 00:05:27 tomoyuki28jp: it is a nice compiler. sbcl optimizes better and generally has more support, but gary byers is a very good hacker. i like the process and i/o system of clozure cl 00:05:28 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 00:06:21 H4ns: nice.. Maybe I should try this. 00:07:06 ccl has a fast compiler, useful for development 00:07:16 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:15 fusss [n=irc@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:20 H4ns: does ccl support serve-event? 00:09:26 bougyman: no 00:09:58 CCL runs on my Thinkpad/Ubuntu Machine?? 00:10:29 tomoyuki28jp: if you run it with a 64 bit linux, then yes. 00:10:30 it runs on my Thinkpad/Debian 64-bit machine 00:10:47 tomoyuki28jp: 32 bit x86 is not yet released. 00:10:48 H4ns: stassats: cool. thanks 00:15:58 -!- Aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-23-56.acanac.net] has left #lisp 00:16:50 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:56 -!- Soulman_ [n=knute@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:38 LDB has got to be one of the sexiest functions in cl-user :-) 00:23:36 parsing 32 byte header structure for a funky 80s file format in four lines: dotimes + byte + ldb 00:23:44 it is from common-lisp 00:24:20 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:25:00 duh. btw, what is the difference between :cl and :cl-user? 00:25:40 fusss: they are different symbols? 00:25:48 I get the -system and -test suffixes. is -user just "mixin" package? why does :cl need cl-user? 00:25:51 the packages with names like that are quite different too 00:27:06 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_ab.htm has some more info 00:27:08 clhs 11.1.2 00:27:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_ab.htm 00:27:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:28:12 hmmm 00:28:28 when I write new packages I import from #:cl-user. is that bad? 00:28:34 yes 00:28:37 import from CL 00:29:12 cl-user doesn't export anything... 00:30:53 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-105-166.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:21 -!- george_ is now known as summersault 00:36:47 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone!"] 00:40:50 ths [n=ths@X43a7.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:40:52 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:12 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X5070.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:42:45 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:10 and I don't write anything. just cut and paste foo.asd and packages.lisp and tidy it up :-P 00:44:16 one more thing; are there any tips for "seeing" sbcl's debugger output and other hints amidst all the backtrace crap swank spews out? 00:44:44 i have an xterm just for loading and testing buggy forms, because the output is more concise 00:44:46 fusss: slime shows a summary 00:44:55 manic12 [n=manic12@c-71-194-156-206.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:59 fusss: and you can use M-n and M-p to jump to notes 00:45:26 what notes? notes from the actual source code? 00:45:33 compiler notes 00:46:34 sometimes I'm getting REALLY obscure messages. Like "NIL is not an integer", and I know the problem might be some result being used, say, as an array index, etc. 00:46:54 that's not really obscure. 00:46:55 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17CE64.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:09 if you get that at runtime, you can jump to the offending defun with "v" in the debugger. 00:47:25 if you compile with high debug (like with C-u C-c C-c) you can jump to the exact form 00:47:37 if you get that at compile time, M-n/M-p will point you to the offending form. 00:47:39 but it would be nice to say "IN the form (AREF ##FOO## NIL) NIL is not an integer" .. ok, it might do that 00:47:54 fusss: the debugger will do that for you with "v" 00:48:05 yeah! that's what I wanna hear :-P 00:48:17 would that be the SBCL debugger or the SLIME debugger? 00:48:20 slime 00:48:48 thanks Xach 00:48:59 *Xach* added C-u C-c C-c and likes it a lot 00:52:23 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-71-194-156-206.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:10 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:13 I remember if you built CMUCL from sources, the Hemlock editor would have better debugging support as it could jump the error location in your systems sources 00:54:21 is that still true of sbcl? 00:54:29 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 00:56:07 fusss: yes. 00:56:48 M-. will jump to sbcl sources just fine. 00:57:01 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.83.209] has joined #lisp 00:57:41 btw Xach, I'm still all over gordon and it's missing a bunch of useful stuff. Bitmap/Sprite tags are not supported. 00:57:59 do you know if the author is reachable around here? 00:58:13 he sometimes visits but not often, and he has not had time for lisp hacking lately 00:58:15 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 00:59:13 I have a cheesy little flash decompiler which I will post when I'm done with it 00:59:37 cool 00:59:46 which version of flash? 00:59:58 *Xach* was working on an avm2 disassembler, did not finish it 01:00:01 mine supported FileAttributes, which is flash 7 01:00:26 <_3b> cl flash tools seem a popular thing to not finish :p 01:00:44 gordon could be updated to flash 9, IMO. as soon as I figure out how to create new tags in Gordon. 01:01:22 who has time for flash when there are so many html generation macros and unit-testing tools to be written 01:02:15 writing incomplete http servers is becoming popular, too! 01:02:35 they're not incomplete. they're part of "web frameworks" 01:02:53 not to mention incomplete web frameworks, true! 01:06:07 If I recompile a asdf defsystem call (through slimes compile-file function), will the system automagically be available in the repl, or do I need to call (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ...) first? 01:06:19 teeZ_3 [n=ase23azz@p3061-ipbfp705fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:08:05 Ijeroj__: that only makes the system definition visible to asdf. you still have to load the system itself. 01:10:03 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:13 Guest44882 [n=Leonidas@chronon.pointtec.de] has joined #lisp 01:11:09 pkhuong: Interesting. I read on http://www.weitz.de/packages.html (at the very bottom) that I should not use (asdf:oos ...) to load my own package. So how should I got about it then? 01:12:27 i don't see there that you should not use asdf:oos 01:12:28 no the point is that you shouldn't do that in your own sources 01:12:50 what you do as a person is different than what programs you write do. 01:14:04 My wish list has suddenly included a small api into the sb-prof profiling data 01:14:55 pkhuong: Hmm, alright then. 01:18:01 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:29 -!- fusss [n=irc@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 01:24:06 -!- edudius_ [n=dqzgxb@200-199-78-155.user.neoline.com.br] has quit ["CyberScript - Just try it! (www.cyberscript.org)"] 01:31:29 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:23 follow http://twitter.com/planet_lisp on twitter to be updated of new planet lisp posts. 01:33:28 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:12 *stassats* uses rss for that 01:34:23 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:34:31 stassats: don't follow @planet_lisp then 01:34:54 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-193-127.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:58 H4ns: ok 01:36:09 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-5-050.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:47 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@75.55.51.80] has quit [] 01:37:47 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:17 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:23 windedge [n=windedge@221.122.66.4] has joined #lisp 01:47:55 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:44 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:10 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:24 -!- windedge [n=windedge@221.122.66.4] has left #lisp 02:06:17 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:45 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 02:08:35 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:35 -!- Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit ["leaving"] 02:09:39 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 02:13:04 bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:37 -!- radu9 [n=radu@cafe-du-parc.mcs.vuw.ac.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:45 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:55 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:18:07 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:25 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19:53 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:24:21 so, learning ruby. I like it when languages have a lispy feel to them. This is fun. 02:24:35 hooray for everything-except-nil being T 02:26:36 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:30:50 Aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-23-56.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:57 windedge [n=windedge@221.122.66.4] has joined #lisp 02:32:18 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:33:07 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:08 sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:35:15 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:48 exit 02:35:54 bah. night, lispers 02:36:10 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["*poof*"] 02:36:18 -!- envi_office2 is now known as envi_office 02:42:01 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:18 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:43:53 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 02:54:18 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-179.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:54:20 -!- Aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-23-56.acanac.net] has left #lisp 03:00:14 -!- metasynt1x [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:07:18 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:14:02 oudeis__ [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 03:17:04 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-91.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 03:19:23 -!- sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 03:19:32 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 03:20:09 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:59 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:15 -!- wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:28 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-105-166.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:15 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:38:18 good morning 03:38:51 Huzzah! http://home.comcast.net/~oneelkruns/ <--- P-Lisp lives! I now have a project for the Apple II I just inherited. 03:40:04 morning, beach, aja. 03:40:49 *aja* dashes off a note to colleaguer RE: Urgent appeal for useable 5.25" floppies. 03:41:15 Gonna need a monitor, too ... 03:45:37 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:02 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:48:32 I think I have some but no way to know if they're usable 03:49:52 JuanDaugherty: I'm sure there are some unsullied boxes of them lying in storage closets around my institute. Should be able to come up with enough for my needs. Might even be able to scare up a compatible hard-drive. Colleges are wonderful places for the technological archeologist. :-) 03:50:32 JuanDaugherty: I ran across a box of unused IBM 80-column cards not two years ago. :-) 03:50:36 no actually threw all mine out a couple years ago with the last device that could read them. 03:51:16 (5.25 disks that is) 03:51:33 rainyrhy [n=rainyrhy@bb121-6-233-3.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:51:46 s/cards/punchcards 03:52:08 ..any Alexandria devs here? .. what do you think about adding something like define-var? .. it's used many places .. say, like in specials.lisp in hunchentoot: http://paste.lisp.org/display/68020 03:54:48 lnostdal: doesn't defvar already take a documentation string? 03:55:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:55:15 aja, only if you supply a value first .. sometimes it's nice to have an unbound global variable like that 03:55:28 lnostdal: Ah, I see. 03:55:34 (defvar var &optional var doc) ;; <-- like that x) 03:55:49 -!- rainyrhy [n=rainyrhy@bb121-6-233-3.singnet.com.sg] has left #lisp 03:55:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:14 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:59 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:40 -!- kjbrock_ [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-140.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 04:12:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 04:14:37 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:04 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:20:02 me-so-stupid_ [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:21:21 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 04:22:43 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.80.242] has joined #lisp 04:25:21 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 04:26:03 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:26:21 _me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:32:43 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:22 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:28 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:00 -!- me-so-stupid_ [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:06 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:51:55 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 04:54:23 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:04:22 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:04:43 -!- turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:05:01 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 05:07:12 mediogre [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has joined #lisp 05:09:29 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 05:14:04 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.217.172] has joined #lisp 05:24:59 -!- chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has left #lisp 05:25:06 chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 05:25:38 -!- oudeis__ [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:25:59 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 05:26:27 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:26:54 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:28:32 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:47 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:29:41 mediogre` [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has joined #lisp 05:31:01 -!- mediogre` [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:33:52 -!- mediogre [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:19 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:34:32 dskippy [n=dskippy@207-180-186-78.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:35:52 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-5-220.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 05:36:18 Can anyone recomend to me a good audio library for common lisp? I can to do th following things. Create a shoutcast/icecast compatible stream for the output. Randomly sample from the middle of ogg or mp3 files. Incorporate other shoutcast streams into the output I create. 05:37:17 I tried gstreamer in Python for this but I am having lots of problems getting random sampling to work properly. I could go into details but it just doesn't have anything that works the way I need it and using it in unintended ways is causing bugs. 05:37:48 I only know of common-music, but that might not cover what you're after 05:38:42 I found common-music. Looks promising. I've been reading about it tonight. I haven't found much on outputting to shoutcast. Google searchs for such things get flooded with how to read shoutcast. 05:39:00 I'll have to just read deeper I think to find out if it supports that. 05:39:24 dskippy: do you have a good C library for it? 05:39:53 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 05:40:35 S11001001, for outputing to shoutcast? No I don't. 05:43:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:43:24 Does anyone know what libraries the author of "Practical Common Lisp" uses in his book? 05:43:48 I found in my searches that one chapter in the book creates a streaming music server. 05:44:01 Anyone have this book? 05:44:13 JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:15 dskippy: you can ask the author here. His nick is gigamonkey 05:44:43 (though he doesn't seem to be on right now) 05:46:37 beach, ha. I should have seen that coming. 05:48:09 the book is available online in its entirety 05:48:18 Oh. Hmm. The... 05:48:21 Yup. 05:48:24 dskippy: you implement shoutcast/icecast from scratch in PCL 05:48:27 That's what I was just typing. 05:48:29 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-shoutcast-server.html 05:49:05 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 05:49:55 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:08 Hmm. Not sure I want to implement the protocol myself. Currently my system produces a stream for an icecast server to mediate. 05:50:21 xinitrc [n=martin@p4FCCEA48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:27 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 05:50:27 *S11001001* assigns dskippy to maintaining Peter's code as a separate library in the Big Book o' Common Lisp Maintainerships 05:50:44 -!- xinitrc [n=martin@p4FCCEA48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:51:22 gasp. That's not fair. 05:51:58 already been done for CL-FAD, so do your share now. 05:53:45 Well I'm going to run. It's late here. Thanks for the help. I may be back soon after some more reaseach. 05:56:18 -!- dskippy [n=dskippy@207-180-186-78.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 05:56:57 man if only that would work 05:57:08 haha 05:57:26 You over there! Write me a preemptive native threading port of CLISP! 06:00:51 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:03:04 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:06 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:12 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:09:26 I believe that there is a function in BLOB which doing what you want... dowim is its name... isn't it ^^ 06:12:15 s/BLOB// 06:12:46 blub is what I was looking for... 06:13:29 I thought blub <= lisp, not lisp <= blub... 06:14:14 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-5-220.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:15:24 good morning 06:18:45 pjb: Blub is just the language which is perfectly useful for each & every one programmer 06:19:02 hello mvilleneuve 06:20:11 so every time you need a feature, it must be in blub... 06:21:26 and if you need dowim, it is certainly in blub (qed) [that being a good or a bad idea is another concern of course :P] 06:21:51 <_3b> wasn't it the other way around? if it isn't in blub, you don't need it? 06:22:14 _3b: the original definition mention the both 06:22:20 http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html 06:23:21 if it isn't in blub you doesn't need it... but if you "need" it (are used to be wanting to use it), it is in blub 06:23:58 you don't* 06:24:22 'Blub' is the name given for a middle-of-the-pack programming language (standing in for Java so as to be politically neutral). When some people rave about the great features of other languages (say, Graham's baby, Lisp), the Blub programmer shows complete indifference, not seeing how those features would make a practical difference day-to-day. 06:24:36 http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005002.html 06:24:42 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:25:09 Aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-23-56.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:46 lemoinem: I think that if you "need" it, it may or may not be in blub, but if it is not, then you won't recognize that you need it. You'll be anesthesied to your need. 06:26:41 And the fundamental difference with lisp, is that if you need it, an dit's not in lisp, then you can add it: (defmacro missing-feature ...) 06:26:56 lemoinem: notice that DWIM was invented in lisp. 06:27:04 yeah, of course, it's just another pov... 'cause if it isn't in blub, you won't need it anyway 06:27:42 lemoinem: No. If it isn't in blub, you won't _know_ that you need it anyway. 06:27:53 That's the problem with blub. 06:28:04 You still need it, but you don't know you need it. 06:29:44 since I don't know that I need something, I won't recognize that I need it... therefore I don't need it... I agree with you, it' just another way to say it, isn't it ? 06:30:21 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 06:30:28 You may need something without knowing what it is, or without knowing you need it. 06:30:49 from an external pov, yes for sure 06:32:16 Well, "x needs y" is not "x feels she needs y" nor "x thinks she needs y". 06:32:36 Anyway, I'll be afk now. 06:32:39 dshep` [n=user@c-24-7-88-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:57 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:14 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-65-26-178-248.indy.res.rr.com] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 06:37:44 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:39:13 pjb, good explanation. 06:40:23 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 06:40:47 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-65-26-178-248.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:21 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45199.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:27 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45199.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 06:44:49 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["sleep"] 06:49:00 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:49:50 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 06:49:53 morning 06:49:59 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:00 hello splittist 06:51:43 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 06:53:22 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:54:09 tic: I always think of the blub argument in terms of turing-completeness. Assuming blub is turing-complete, you _can_ do whatever you want in that language. However, nothing says you'll enjoy it. 06:54:26 turing tarpit 06:56:52 -!- windedge [n=windedge@221.122.66.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:21 turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:01 Yes, the notion of turing tarpit is different from the notion of blub language. 07:02:19 karpar [n=zhili@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has joined #lisp 07:02:44 In a Turing Machine, you can implement a multiplication. But since it's hard to do, TM programmers don't know they need multiplications, they just push states. 07:03:27 "Multiplication? What for? Look I can push states!" 07:04:23 -!- karpar [n=zhili@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:43 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:07:13 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:11:07 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:11 jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-90-90.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:15:22 hehe 07:19:15 -!- dshep` [n=user@c-24-7-88-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:19:16 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:37 -!- nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:19:44 mikesch_ [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-241-87.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:45 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 07:23:29 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:24:27 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:25:03 gzy [n=gf209326@fw-gw-atm.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 07:25:28 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 07:26:06 hi, did anyone succeed in adding common lisp syntax gihhlighting to gedit? 07:26:45 (i know that a straying ot a little, but it's worth a try...) 07:27:37 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:53 Do people code in gedit? 07:31:57 aja, +1 on what pjb and spacebat. :) 07:32:07 some do, but probably not lisp. :) 07:32:26 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-114-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:28 -!- gzy [n=gf209326@fw-gw-atm.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:38:19 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:42:26 -!- turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:43:26 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:43:43 -!- hsaliak_ [n=hsaliak@cm73.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:43:44 hello lispers 07:43:52 hello kiuma 07:47:05 -!- mikesch_ [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-241-87.netcologne.de] has quit [] 07:48:22 -!- _me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:56:16 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 07:59:42 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-53da8d3b40298bc1] has joined #lisp 08:01:06 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:01:21 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:39 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:07:04 -!- Aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-23-56.acanac.net] has left #lisp 08:07:45 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:09:57 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-105-2.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:36 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 08:12:09 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-105-2.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:14:01 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.215.61.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:05 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:18:08 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 08:20:31 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-110-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:29 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:24:48 -!- JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:27:07 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:28:45 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:28:56 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:39 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:58 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:30:20 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:30:38 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:46 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:48 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:45 mikesch_ [n=axel@tmo-117-26.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:19 Once more, my only away messages were spam. :-( 08:34:05 bob_f: ? 08:34:46 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-110-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:35:03 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:36:07 mediogre [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has joined #lisp 08:36:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:38:17 beach: One of those clever little spam bots that highlights everyone in a channel was here again. 08:39:41 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:41:03 mornin' bob_f ! 08:42:13 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 08:43:15 -!- envi_office is now known as envi^office 08:44:10 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:45:23 alklazema [n=chatzill@d90-128-131-47.cust.tele2.nl] has joined #lisp 08:50:06 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-118-30.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:12 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.217.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:51:43 -!- alklazema [n=chatzill@d90-128-131-47.cust.tele2.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092416]"] 08:52:37 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 08:52:46 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 08:53:59 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:07 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-118-30.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:03:38 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17CE64.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:50 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17CD1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:39 -!- mikesch_ [n=axel@tmo-117-26.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:08:17 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:18:29 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:19:45 mcxx- [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has joined #lisp 09:20:14 matley [n=matley@83.225.69.93] has joined #lisp 09:20:44 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:24 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-015-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:09 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:22:17 -!- mcxx- is now known as mcxx 09:22:33 mikesch [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:53 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 09:24:03 hans_ [n=H4ns@p57A0F859.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:46 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:27:49 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 09:32:48 -!- mikesch [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33:12 -!- H4ns [n=H4ns@p57A0C98B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:20 mikesch [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:00 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-007-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:49 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:34:49 -!- ths [n=ths@X43a7.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:02 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:01 user___ [n=user@p549258A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:07 *user___* hasn't found a *.m3u or *.pls playlist parser on cliki.net, shyly asks to let him know if he overlooked it 09:39:20 roll one of your own. :) 09:39:52 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:39:54 tic: yes, i will do search ".mp3" for now, etc.. ;-) 09:40:10 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:40 hm .. (eq (when old-value t) (when new-value t)) ;; /me wonders if this exists as an already existing function in # 09:41:15 lnostdal: it's called and. 09:41:16 hrm. (and old-value new-value) ;? 09:41:38 won't evaluate new-value once old-value is true, of course 09:41:50 but that EQ form is a pretty strange way to go about it 09:41:55 if you really must return T, and not new-value, (and old-value new-value t) 09:41:58 yeah, why did i not use and .. i think i did originally .. uh .. x) 09:42:06 (-: 09:42:14 btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f24b.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:38 ah, yes .. now i remember .. and is a macro .. 09:42:43 ..can't pass it around 09:43:00 but of course .. in the  .. i need coffee 09:44:40 you can use EVERY. 09:45:41 yeah, every #'identy ..i guess 09:46:09 right 09:48:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:51:53 segv_: it's not AND, because old-value = new-value = nil yields T 09:52:08 it's more like XOR 09:52:15 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-098-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:41 this is making my head spin .. yes, there are some problems with using and now .. so this is is why i did that weird ugly thing then .. x) 09:53:11 I would probably s/when/and/g, though 09:53:52 ok, ...damn... now i'm not sure again .. i'll take a break .. *sigh* 09:54:25 ths [n=ths@p549AC617.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:55 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@83.226.136.163] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:37 -!- teeZ_3 [n=ase23azz@p3061-ipbfp705fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0: SIGTERM received; exit"] 09:57:58 lnostdal: if in doubt, make a table. it has only four cells :) 10:02:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 10:02:38 hello 10:12:53 travisje` [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 10:13:21 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-62.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:16:19 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.69.93] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:11 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-5-220.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:18:56 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:04 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.83.209] has quit [] 10:19:24 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp89-110-62-174.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:19:26 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:22:23 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 10:25:00 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-098-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 10:27:21 mozzyb_ [n=mozzyb@180.84-48-169.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:02 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:31:11 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:32:01 is there a cl vanilla function for converting a one dimensional vector into a string? (had this once as make-string cruft code but then deleted it) 10:32:35 user___: a vector containing what ? 10:33:10 unsigned byte i think, checking.. 10:33:25 user___: a vector of characters is a string. for converting octets, you need some external library 10:33:28 minion: babel 10:33:36 minion: flexi-streams 10:33:39 oh well 10:33:42 -!- hans_ is now known as H4nsX 10:33:46 flexi-streams: FLEXI-STREAMS is a library which implements "virtual" bivalent streams that can be layered atop real binary/bivalent streams. http://www.cliki.net/flexi-streams 10:33:48 babel: Babel is a charset encoding/decoding library, not unlike GNU libiconv, but completely written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/babel 10:34:48 user___: certainly, all modern implementations have functions to convert between byte vectors and strings, non-portably. try (apropos "to-octets") and (apropos "octets-to") 10:35:01 ok, thanks very much 10:35:06 user___: if each vector member is an Unicode code point, then (map 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#lisp 11:06:19 cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:19 dublpaws [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:41 ircbrowse is back up(somewhat). login and search don't work 11:07:47 -!- travisje` [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:08:03 travisje` [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 11:13:07 morning 11:13:13 hello Xof 11:13:32 hi Xof 11:14:12 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 11:20:57 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:21:13 -!- EvanR [n=chatzill@adsl-250-238-122.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [No route to host] 11:21:39 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-71-194-156-206.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:24:37 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:34 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:11 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except to check that my clx changes don't break _everything) 12:04:04 I guess that means I have to fix my SBCL too... 12:04:11 I have clx/dependent.lisp in a climacs buffer 12:04:17 matley [n=matley@83.225.121.187] has joined #lisp 12:04:35 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:04:47 if I move the cursor around in column 1 in a region that is commented out by #+foo, then some forms get rendered in the uncommented colour rather than the commented one 12:05:36 (also, pathname completion doesn't do what I expect it to, but I've probably whined about that before and it's probably a mcclim/esa problem not a climacs one) 12:06:29 What a coincidence, I seem to get an error while compiling clx/dependent.lisp. 12:06:34 re 12:07:11 really? That sucks 12:07:14 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:33 fwiw, I don't :-/ 12:07:33 Looks like a lot of unreachable code warnings... probably not a problem! 12:08:17 Huh, my ASDF seems to treat unreachable-code warnings as errors. 12:10:26 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:15 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has quit [] 12:12:54 Man, I can't even get Climacs to run. "The value NIL is not of type XLIB:VISUAL-INFO."? 12:13:06 Looks like it's within MCCLIM-TRUETYPE. 12:13:19 slyrus ran into that yesterday 12:13:27 george_ [n=george@189.107.177.101] has joined #lisp 12:14:17 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:08 dlowe pasted "sbcl warning oddity" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68038 12:15:20 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:16:49 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 12:17:08 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:41 apple_ide__ [n=apple_id@203-214-158-119.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:20:55 spotted a lisp recruiting advert: https://www.getafreelancer.com/projects/C-C-Java/Full-Time-Lisp-Developers-Lisp.324681.html 12:21:13 the guy whos recruiting: https://www.getafreelancer.com/users/218576.html 12:21:17 his company : "Conners" 12:21:18 haha 12:21:26 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:22:05 -!- apple_ide__ [n=apple_id@203-214-158-119.perm.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 12:22:50 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 12:22:51 dlowe: simple forms are handler specially by the compiler-as-interpreter. 12:23:14 LET does not qualify as simple. 12:23:32 *handled 12:23:50 pkhuong: Interesting. I thought sbcl compiled all forms without distingushing. 12:23:54 apple_ide__ [n=apple_id@203-214-158-119.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:23:58 We will pay each developer $1600- $2400 for working 200 hours per month. That is 8 US dollars to 12 US dollars per hour. LOL!!! 12:24:00 hm, seems like admin@common-lisp.net does not work due to some looping forwarding or something like that 12:24:20 attila_lendvai: please provide details, hans.huebner@gmail.com 12:25:03 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:25:11 dlowe: that'd make for even more awful load times. 12:26:16 H4ns: mail sent (from a friend of my) 12:27:43 attila_lendvai: I may have some interesting functionality to integrate into stefil 12:27:46 gah. forgot newaliases. i thought we've arrived in the 21th century, but postfix does not seem to agree 12:27:50 -!- summersault [n=george@189.107.153.249] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:28:22 *manuel_* sees a clojure hacking opportunity coming up 12:29:01 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:30:02 dlowe: i'm open for patches 12:30:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:30:42 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 12:30:48 attila_lendvai: It's a small macro setup that allows you to record the arguments of every call to a function 12:31:09 attila_lendvai: using function encapsulation 12:31:35 dlowe: hm. isn't the backtrace enough? i wonder what's your use-case... 12:32:09 -!- apple_ide__ [n=apple_id@203-214-158-119.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:10 if you start the tests from the repl any failed assertions should bring up the debugger 12:32:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:32:38 from the test-op it is run in non-interactive mode, though 12:32:54 attila_lendvai: so you can do (tracing-function (perform-foo) (do-foo-parsing)) (let ((calls (gethash 'perform-foo *function-calls*))) (is (= 1 (length calls))) (is (equal (list 5 6) calls))) 12:33:00 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:54 I was reading a book on unit testing, and it was talking about mock objects that record operations so they could be checked afterwards 12:34:17 dlowe: hm, that sounds useful 12:34:31 It occurred to me that it could be done generically in CL 12:35:23 attila_lendvai: ok, I'll send you a patch when I'm satisfied with it 12:36:08 dlowe: and how would you do the wrapping? (setf (fdefinition 'perform-foo) (make-instance 'some-funcallable-that-you-can-typep ...)) and restore from uwp? 12:36:17 xristos [n=xristos@93-97-222-156.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:36:42 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.121.187] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:48 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37:05 attila_lendvai: the implementations I care about seem to have some sort of wrapping facility. sbcl has sb-int:encapsulate. cmucl has fwrappers 12:38:23 dlowe: oh, ok, sounds good. looking forward for the patch. feel free to introduce new files or even an 'src' directory... i'll hold back any big changes until your patch. (not that there was big activity in stefil recently) 12:38:43 just make sure you are pulled before you start 12:38:52 attila_lendvai: sure thing 12:40:56 appleide [n=eric@203-214-158-119.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:42:36 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:43:12 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:10 dlowe: wouldn't it be much more useful to track calls as a tree, rather than a linear trace? 12:48:37 -!- appleide [n=eric@203-214-158-119.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:48:37 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:48:37 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:48:37 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB99B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:48:37 -!- rumbleca 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[n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Success] 12:53:29 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:53:30 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:53:31 crypto_ [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 12:53:41 -!- crypto_ is now known as z0d 12:53:53 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-250.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:54:24 -!- cipher [n=cipher@torque.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:54:25 pkhuong: the way I actually have it set up is with a *function-calls* hashtable with the function name as its key, and a list of argument lists as its value 12:54:35 This is for automated testing, though, not debugging. I just to verify that x function was called y many times with z parameters 12:54:57 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 12:55:10 unfortunately, setf into a hash also does not qualify as "simple" :( 12:55:18 apple_ide [n=apple_id@203-214-158-119.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:55:43 dlowe: you can declare special random variables special, e.g. in a locally. 12:55:44 just wondering, whats the 2nd best programming language out there? 12:56:07 (but when you do find a difference, having a tree could speed debugging up) 12:56:32 2nd most fun to use ** 12:56:51 hard to beat lol code. 12:57:02 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:58:03 Athas: can I have a backtrace from that NIL / VISUAL-INFO snafu? 12:58:19 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:25 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has joined #lisp 12:58:27 guenther__ [n=guenther@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:35 olejorgenb [i=bronner@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 12:58:38 slyrus didn't want to give me one :-( 12:58:42 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:58:47 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:58:50 -!- Xach_ is now known as Xach 12:58:52 chandler [n=chandler@new.unmutual.info] has joined #lisp 12:59:10 cipher [n=cipher@torque.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 12:59:20 -!- chandler is now known as Guest82191 13:00:06 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 13:00:11 pkhuong: I tried using locally, but it gave me a package lok violation on sb-int 13:00:13 *Xach* gets more nikodemuspam 13:00:37 dlowe: what did you declare and what was the lock violation on? 13:00:46 Xach: what blogging software does planet.lisp like the most? 13:00:57 pkhuong: sb-int:arg-list 13:01:17 pkhuong: this is part of the sb-int:encapsulate functionality 13:02:09 *dlowe* is starting to think it's just a bug that the proper variables aren't declared globally special anyway. 13:02:43 dlowe: yeah, that's fishy. You could use symbol-value as a workaround. 13:03:01 kreuter: whatever produces a nice atom feed that has complete content in it, and optionally categories (if there's mixed lisp and non-lisp content) 13:03:22 these days few feeds are primitive enough to make my life difficult 13:03:47 can you dumb that down, for the dumb? 13:04:10 pkhuong: yeah, that worked well. Thanks 13:04:45 kreuter: i think it would be hard to find blogging software used by more than 25 people that doesn't work perfectly fine with planet lisp 13:04:56 ok 13:05:05 kreuter: if you find some wacky elisp package used by the author and his brother, that might not work as well 13:05:26 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AC617.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:05:30 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Connection refused] 13:06:01 -!- apple_ide [n=apple_id@203-214-158-119.perm.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 13:06:18 Vee, maybe, but I think that doesn't do RSS at all. 13:07:11 user pasted "how can i handle this condition?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68043 13:08:27 user___: handler-case, handler-bind 13:08:52 Xach: ok, once read about this, tvm 13:09:41 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 13:12:05 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:12:21 athos [n=philipp@p54B855CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:57 user__ [n=user@p54924F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:31 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:14:07 every time I see an emoticon like :( or :) I try to read it as lisp code, I'm driving insane 13:14:38 *getting 13:15:10 please put a nose :-} 13:15:38 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:36 kiuma: :( ... ) was ZetaLisp syntax for "parse all of the following list into the KEYWORD package" 13:17:42 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:18:28 kreuter, ghaaaaa !!! 13:18:30 hehe 13:19:52 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:21:30 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:07 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:23:59 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:24:31 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:24:51 kreuter [n=user@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:59 has someone told nikodemus about his mail problem? 13:25:03 kpreid: i have 13:25:16 that's what prompted his recent test message, which i only got once 13:25:23 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:41 everything else i got several times. 13:26:34 I'm not sure it's nokodemus's problem 13:26:39 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:26:47 the same thing has happened on ecls-devel the lasst days 13:27:32 yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-27-220.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:27:56 i'm not sure of it either, but i haven't seen duplicates from any other person on the sbcl list 13:27:58 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:28:03 I'd bet the sourceforge migration hasn't been so successful :D 13:28:04 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 13:29:32 has anybody else been sending messages to the list this weekend? 13:29:42 -!- user___ [n=user@p549258A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:56 I think I did 13:30:06 kreuter: and a couple others. 13:30:06 i saw messages from a few different people. 13:30:08 oh, right 13:30:34 either Mail.app is actually doing a good job, or I'm not getting dupes. 13:30:58 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:00 they have identical message ids 13:31:30 and content, i think (haven't looked at the sourceforge ad footer) 13:31:42 the headers differ in the mail path taken 13:31:48 go magic clickibunti. 13:32:25 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:32:47 it's true that my gnus will discard duplicate messages with the same message ID 13:33:34 The sbcl-devel archive on google groups sees multiple copies 13:34:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:35:49 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:02 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:26 milos_ [n=milos@92.36.180.249] has joined #lisp 13:39:25 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit ["."] 13:40:04 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:42:01 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:43:27 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:47:01 Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 13:47:51 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-24-236.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:48:02 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 13:48:13 -!- Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 13:48:18 Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 13:48:19 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:49:29 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:45 Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 13:49:45 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 13:51:19 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 13:51:40 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:04 *user__* thinks that b burgem's cl reference is really good for beginners 13:54:57 -!- Guest82191 is now known as chandler 13:58:52 user__: yes, it's very nice that he undertook it. 13:59:26 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:59:41 It rocks 14:00:11 the pocketspec? 14:00:13 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB99B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:48 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:51 Indeed. 14:00:53 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:08 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:01:29 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB99B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:01:34 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 14:01:48 haha, I'd like to see the Evolution of Lisp-play. 14:03:11 user__: it's not on google yet. Do you have any url? 14:03:27 splittist, agreed. 14:03:55 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:03 matimago: one moment 14:04:16 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:05:49 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 14:06:48 bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.127.60] has joined #lisp 14:06:52 matimago: http://xach.livejournal.com/182149.html 14:07:33 Thanks. 14:07:42 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.216.65.2] has joined #lisp 14:07:47 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:08:17 Doesn't it lack some details, for beginners? I would have thought it could be more useful to seasonned CLers. 14:08:55 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 14:10:25 matimago: i like the "layered boxes", f.e. p.20 or also p.25. i also like to grep /home/user/clbuild for code examples when i dont understand the clhs at first sight (happens most often) 14:10:52 matimago: A great cheat-sheet. I guess the benefit for near-beginners is to be able to quickly get an overview. (But I agree probably better for the bitter 50-somethings of #lisp...) 14:11:07 *tic* is half that and still enjoys the reference! 14:11:15 We'd need an updated CLtL for beginners. 14:13:10 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:13:30 -!- user__ [n=user@p54924F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:13:31 do you know if parenscript is able to parse a js array into a CL list ? 14:13:57 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:57 -!- nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:14:09 kiuma: perhaps you'd use cl-json to do that? 14:14:43 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:44 mmm...., another library :( 14:15:06 Are there literal arrays in Javascript? 14:16:04 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:17:49 matley [n=matley@83.224.198.208] has joined #lisp 14:18:04 var x = {'foo':'bar', 'name':'goo'}; alert(x['foo']); ? 14:18:31 the use of new Array(); would be better 14:18:39 This is a hash-table. 14:18:58 what do you mean by literal array then ? 14:19:05 nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:25 Well, if literal hashtables exist, I guess literal arrays exist too. 14:19:43 matimago: I completely agree about an update CLtL. 14:19:48 matimago, position is kept 14:19:49 kiuma: The question is whether they're translated to lists, or ot hashtables and arrays. 14:20:05 I wonder if GlS would agree to open the content of the book into a wiki so it could be updated for ANSI? 14:20:16 s/GlS/GLS/ 14:20:28 kiuma: anyways, it's not parenscript that would translate from javascript to lisp, but jwacs. 14:20:47 parenscript translates from sexps to javascript. 14:21:39 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:21:42 *e271* can vouch for parenscript. 14:22:25 badlambda [n=badlambd@201-24-71-99.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:24:13 thx, it was just to know, not a problem 14:25:59 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:41 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 14:32:56 gonzojive [n=red@75.55.51.80] has joined #lisp 14:35:22 bhyde_ [n=bhyde@static-71-243-120-39.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:39 -!- gonzojive [n=red@75.55.51.80] has quit [Client Quit] 14:36:54 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:08 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:40:41 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.127.60] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:23 -!- mediogre [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:16 -!- badlambda [n=badlambd@201-24-71-99.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit ["sleeping"] 14:42:36 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 14:43:08 badlambda [n=badlambd@201-24-71-99.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:43:26 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:44:31 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 14:45:07 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B855CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:51:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:01 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:52:38 -!- milos_ [n=milos@92.36.180.249] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:53:23 milos_ [n=milos@92.36.134.234] has joined #lisp 14:53:42 milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.147] has joined #lisp 15:00:14 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:19 well... I'm having quite a hard with slime/SBCL... anyone aroud here ? using Xubuntu (last version), emacs 22.1.1, slime 2008-10-04 (cvs snapshot) and 2007-09-27 (xubuntu package), SBCL 1.0.11 (xubuntu package)... I have (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) in my .emacs and (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/echo" '("")) keeps telling me that "The value #\U66F8 is not of type BASE-CHAR."... if I try it directly in the SBCL REPL 15:00:37 does any one have an idea about what I'm doing wrong ? 15:00:58 lemoinem: what's your $LANG env var? 15:01:02 that character isn't a base-char. 15:01:12 LANG=en_CA.UTF-8 15:01:48 lemoinem: hm... might have been fixed in a more recent sbcl. i remember some discussions about the external-format of the stdio streams for run-program 15:02:02 does sb-ext:run-program expect you to supply base-strings for the command line arguments? 15:02:04 lemoinem: your LANG should be fine 15:02:28 ok, so I should better look for a new version of SBCL... I'll try it immediately 15:02:32 H4ns: I don't think it does in recentish releases. 15:02:44 lemoinem: you got cut off after "if I try it directly ..." 15:02:53 attila_lendvai: yeah unicode is doing well everywhere else on my system 15:02:55 does it work when you try it directly in the REPL? 15:03:00 if I try it directly in the SBCL REPL (not via SLIME, directly calling sbcl from command-line) I have the same error message, (stream-external-format *standard-output*) gives me :UTF-8 in the SBCL REPL and "The value # is not of type SB-KERNEL:ANSI-STREAM." in slime REPL... 15:03:21 full line this time ? 15:03:33 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 15:03:55 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:18 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:26 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:05:24 H4ns: yeah, since 1.0.21.21 (Dec 9 2007), run-program uses the default external format for args and environment variables. 15:05:26 wfm on 1.0.cutting edge. You might want to build from source yourself. 1.0.11 is nearly 1 year old. 15:05:34 erm, 1.0.12.21 15:06:52 ok, I'm installing it from cvs snapshot 1.0.20 15:08:29 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 15:08:47 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:11:54 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:12:26 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:12:44 -!- milos_ [n=milos@92.36.134.234] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:13:07 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:14:09 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:15:10 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:15 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-140.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:37 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:01 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:42 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:20:08 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:20:42 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:23:20 well... working with sbcl 1.0.20 .... it was just (x)ubuntu/debian packages being ""a little"" old... sorry about that 15:24:46 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:26:04 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:29:44 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-114-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:13 spiaggia: are you there? 15:31:17 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:31:25 Xof: yep 15:31:28 aha 15:32:17 I work at home on mondays usually. 15:33:38 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:34:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:34:39 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E124.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:44 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D396.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:50 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-140.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:21 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:18 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:32 Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:03 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit ["bfirc dans ta gueule."] 15:42:15 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:24 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.243.117] has joined #lisp 15:46:13 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:48:52 When writing a cffi:defcfun form for "enum foo_enum bar(int baz);" and having already defcenumed foo_enum, how do i write the return type of bar? ie (defcfun ("bar" bar) ????? (baz :int)) 15:49:37 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB99B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:51:41 -!- btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f24b.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:54:16 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:55:58 hi nikodemus 15:56:48 gilberth [n=gilbert@d014020.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:57 antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:05 hey gilberth! What a surprise! 15:57:24 hi there. 15:57:30 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 15:57:37 gilberth: what's up? 15:58:06 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:58:13 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:24 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:39 Nothing special in the Lisp domain. 15:59:21 gilberth: surely, there must be a reason you give us the honor of coming here today. 15:59:50 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-24-236.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:00:21 -!- mikesch [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:00:38 gilberth: or are you less busy these days? 16:01:02 hi! 16:01:18 hello nikodemus 16:01:33 *Xach* waits for nikodemus to repeat "hi!" 4 times 16:01:36 I tend to try to not be as busy. 16:01:54 gilberth: that's probably a good thing. 16:02:53 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-101-12.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:56 Xach: maybe he will, but it will be dragged out over the whole day ;) 16:03:16 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:32 *hnaz* tags xach's body 16:04:16 MHOOO [n=nah@u-6-119.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:04:34 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@180.84-48-169.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Changing server"] 16:05:38 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:06:48 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:31 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 16:08:39 mikesch_ [n=axel@tmo-117-26.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:13 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@180.84-48-169.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:36 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 16:09:50 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 16:10:02 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45481.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:17 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:03 mikesch__ [n=axel@tmo-125-4.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:04 Anyone here ever had the problem of emacs's "M-." (find-tag) finding the right file, but opening the wrong by using the full path and appending it to the current path? (turning into something like: e:/temp/Coden/_Lisp/e/temp/Coden/_Lisp/somedir/somefile.lisp) 16:12:36 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:43 what i *think* is happening is that sometimes sourceforge sends a response that gmail interprets as "delivery failed, resend later", whereas the first delivery already succeeded, really 16:12:43 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-90-90.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:37 aside from pestering google support, there is relatively little i can do myself, unfortunately 16:13:47 ...hi! 16:17:06 -!- mikesch__ [n=axel@tmo-125-4.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [] 16:18:36 mikesch__ [n=axel@tmo-123-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:20 nikodemus: I don't think I'll be working much on sbcl this semester. I just had an itch to see this one hack through. 16:19:31 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 16:19:37 nikodemus: pester sourceforge support? 16:20:06 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:21:19 rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:37 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 16:23:16 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45199.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:20 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:25:22 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:25:49 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:26:25 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:28 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:27:46 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 16:28:18 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.216.65.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:29:16 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:31:50 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:31:57 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [""] 16:32:48 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-101-12.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:35 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:53 -!- mikesch_ [n=axel@tmo-117-26.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:35:57 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:00 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:36:18 seditiosus [n=seditios@68.43.68.161] has joined #lisp 16:36:55 Hello. 16:37:04 hello seditiosus 16:37:20 How are you? 16:37:39 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483B9F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:37:50 seditiosus: Me? Fine as usual. Are you new here? 16:38:47 beach: Yeah. I found out that lisp could be used with hunchentoot as a web programming language. The only problem is I'm not exactly sure if I configured hunchentoot properly. 16:39:17 seditiosus: I am not a web programmer myself, but there are others in here that can help you with that. 16:39:30 beach: Thanks. 16:39:48 seditiosus: What problems are you having? 16:40:20 seditiosus, have you looked at Lispcast? 16:41:28 Piranha: I'm not sure if it is a problem, or just my misunderstanding. I'm using emacs/slime/sbcl. Hunchentoot starts fine from slime and is running through mod_lisp2 for apache. My problem is the pages only display if I enter the code in the REPL first. Is there a way around this with hunchentoot? 16:42:03 tic: No, is it similar? 16:42:14 seditiosus, have you read pcl? 16:42:14 seditiosus: you have to start the server for it to run. 16:42:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:23 seditiosus, it's a webcast on writing a reddit clone using Hunchentoot. 16:43:34 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:35 seditiosus: If you want a solution where you fire up some program from Linux and your web server becomes available, you may want to take a look at cl-launch. 16:43:44 hunchentoot, is that supposed to mean blowing a small hen's horn? 16:43:49 And write a function to the cl-launch interface to start Hunchentoot. 16:43:52 pkhuong: I start the server with (hunchentoot:start-server :port 3000 :mod-lisp-p t) 16:44:20 Piranha: Thanks. 16:44:23 seditiosus: Right, and then the pages display fine. 16:45:22 pkhuong: Only if I enter the code in the REPL first. Is it possible for me to just have the files in my /lisp directory? 16:45:40 seditiosus: one way or another, the server function must be called for the server to run. 16:45:53 I don't use mod_lisp, but I really don't think it will fire up your Lisp implementation for you. 16:45:54 that's like trying to have apache serve pages without running apache 16:46:19 you haven't actually LOADed the lisp files into your lisp image yet? 16:46:19 I think I'm phrasing my question wrong. 16:46:37 For that reason among others, I don't really see the point of mod_lisp. I run Hunchentoot to serve HTTP and use Apache to proxy requests to it. 16:46:40 I start hunchentoot and apache. Hunchentoot-test works fine. 16:47:08 -!- mikesch__ [n=axel@tmo-123-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:18 Do I have to load the pages I want displaed in the REPL, or will apache pass them to hunchentoot and hunchentoot will then interpret and display? 16:47:31 Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 16:47:36 in an hunchentoot application, the hunchentoot process keeps running and receives requests. The mapping is URI => function, not URI => file. 16:47:43 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.216.65.2] has joined #lisp 16:47:47 you have to register handlers for that mapping. 16:48:15 and a handler will typically be a function that generates the response. 16:48:21 minion: lispcast 16:48:21 lispcast: LispCast is a video screencast series depicting real-world Lisp application development. http://www.cliki.net/lispcast 16:48:32 go watch that 16:49:01 Alright. I'll go watch this webcast. Thanks for all the input. 16:49:31 -!- seditiosus [n=seditios@68.43.68.161] has left #lisp 16:49:50 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.216.65.2] has quit [Client Quit] 16:52:12 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 16:52:26 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 16:52:28 'morning 16:52:39 if only.... 16:53:12 anyone run into "not a binary output stream" error with recent sbcl and cl-pdf and know a/the workaround? 16:53:31 i'm half-convinced this didn't use to happen, but might be misremembering 16:53:44 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-91.kosnet.ru] has quit ["Love, Love, Love!"] 16:53:45 salex: i believe that's a faq here. Problem with compression, I think Xach knows the solution. 16:54:04 yeah, i had a vague memory of that 16:54:17 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:19 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:40 otoh, i've had it working on this identical setup and the only thing that has changed is sbcl version, so wondered if it were a newish twist 16:54:53 hello salex 16:55:01 hey beach. how goes? 16:55:17 salex: Not bad. And you? 16:55:42 ok. futzing around writing a `teaching dossier'. what fun 16:55:57 sounds like it :) 16:55:58 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:56:22 parts of the academic hiring process are pretty annoying 16:56:35 salex: yeah, it's stream compression 16:56:47 Xach: gotcha, i'll disable. 16:56:47 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:56:49 apropos "compression" will show you the special to set to nil 16:56:55 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:03 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:57:07 -!- envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:22 lisp is making me angry. It's making me expect things from any other language that I take for granted :( 16:57:31 bah 16:57:40 embrace the smugness 16:58:01 :( I'm trying not to ;_: 16:58:28 is that what the smugness is about? 16:58:35 sykopomp: common problem, that. 16:58:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 16:59:22 -!- seelenquell_ is now known as seelenquell 16:59:26 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:59:37 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.177.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:44 Xach: thanks, that worked. 16:59:51 george_ [n=george@189.107.200.51] has joined #lisp 16:59:57 odd thing was it was intermittent-ish 17:00:19 I'm trying to learn ruby, just to learn another thing. They don't really seem to know what I mean by a pretty printer. :| 17:00:29 but python has it, so maybe I'm expressing myself wrong. 17:00:43 sykopomp: it helps to learn new things on their own terms. 17:01:04 it's not a good thing to say to a new girlfriend "You are not nearly as pretty as my last girlfriend, and my mother is a way better cook." 17:01:33 yeah, but you generally expect your new girlfriend to have a left eye, and maybe 9 out of 10 fingers 17:01:52 I tend to shy away from new girlfriends that are just sitting limply on a chair with foam coming out their mouths :( 17:01:54 if you can't be with the one you love... 17:02:32 you can run into trouble with pretty much any language by trying to make it fit another ones idioms 17:02:48 I'm talking about a pretty printer here, not CLOS :( 17:03:11 ... fair enough 17:03:17 this is a perly language, I would generally expect them to have pretty good string-munging capabilities, too 17:03:42 I'm sure it has it, but I certainly can't find it. I'm not asking for format :P 17:03:44 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 17:04:37 in its defence, it does some really fun lisp-like things that make me feel at home, like having all values except nil and false be false 17:04:40 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 be true* 17:05:50 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 17:08:09 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-38.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:08:43 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:11:33 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 17:11:38 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:13:01 -!- badlambda [n=badlambd@201-24-71-99.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:20 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit ["leaving"] 17:13:29 Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 17:13:51 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:24 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:45 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 17:19:27 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:42 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:42 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:30 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:30:26 hasn't the initial ruby author stated that he intended ruby to be a lisp? or is that apocryphal? 17:31:38 ah, intentions 17:31:55 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:04 -!- Faed is now known as Fade 17:32:31 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has joined #lisp 17:33:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4aee18283a17804a] has joined #lisp 17:33:36 Fade: i read that he wrote a few interpreters and finally liked the 11th or so 17:34:03 he didn't intend it to be a scary perl-esque thing, then? 17:34:10 must have got confused at some point :) 17:34:44 salex: pdf compression only kicks in above a certain file size 17:34:55 (can't remember if that's general or a cl-pdfism) 17:37:05 lesceil [n=lesceil@gateway.penguincomputing.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:07 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:17 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:30 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:59 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:20 that photo of pitman on planetlisp was taken in the 80s, right? right? 17:39:52 lukego: he's quite a young man 17:39:56 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 17:40:54 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:02 I'd heard that. but the photo is still 15 years off what I expected 17:41:03 lisp keeps 50-year olds young. 17:41:30 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:56 Krystof: makes sense. 17:42:33 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:42:35 salex> ... fair enough [12:03] 17:42:36 this is a perly language, I would generally expect them to have 17:42:36 pretty good string-munging capabilities, too 17:42:36 I'm sure it has it, but I certainly can't find it. I'm not asking 17:42:39 for format :P 17:42:42 *** obsethryl (n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl) has joined channel #lisp 17:42:45 in its defence, it does some really fun lisp-like things that make 17:42:48 me feel at home, like having all values except nil and false be 17:42:52 false [12:04] 17:42:55 *** vasa (n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by) has joined channel 17:42:56 #lisp 17:42:59 lukeg: my reaction exactly! 17:42:59 eek 17:42:59 be true* 17:43:02 *** pstickne (n=pstickne@199.237.80.119) has joined channel #lisp [12:05] 17:43:02 what happened 17:43:04 clipboard FAIL 17:43:06 *** fe[nl]ix (n=algidus@88-149-208-38.dynamic.ngi.it) has joined channel #lisp 17:43:09 [12:08] 17:43:12 *** rdd (n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se) has quit: Connection timed 17:43:15 out 17:43:18 *** travisjeffery (n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca) has joined 17:43:20 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 17:43:22 channel #lisp [12:11] 17:43:22 who's bot is this 17:43:25 *** dlowe (n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has quit: "Leaving." 17:43:26 *** badlambda (n=badlambd@201-24-71-99.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) has 17:43:29 quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) [12:13] 17:43:31 i think he's misyanking 17:43:32 *** Ifur (i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no) has quit: "leaving" 17:43:36 *** Ifur (i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no) has joined channel #lisp 17:43:37 and can't stop it 17:43:39 *** BrianRice-mb (n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined 17:43:42 channel #lisp 17:43:45 *** envi^home (n=envi@220.121.234.156) has quit: Read error: 110 (Connection 17:43:48 timed out) [12:14] 17:43:52 *** Hun (n=Hun@82.149.80.128) has joined channel #lisp [12:16] 17:43:55 putting temporarily on ignore, sorry, but it is getting bothersome :/ 17:43:55 *** manuel__ (n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de) has joined 17:43:56 channel #lisp [12:19] 17:43:59 *** manuel_ (n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de) has quit: Read 17:44:02 error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) 17:44:03 uhh 17:44:06 *** rme (n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined channel 17:44:06 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 17:44:09 #lisp [12:23] 17:44:10 -!- Xach [n=xach@207.5.178.18] has been kicked from #lisp 17:44:12 uuh 17:44:14 :} 17:44:24 ouch! 17:44:30 thanks Xach 17:44:39 hate it when that happens :( 17:44:53 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 17:45:47 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 17:45:53 "usually" such things cause an "excess flood" server reaction. 17:46:00 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:04 urk, thx for kick Xach 17:46:17 window focus snafu. too many emacs 17:46:30 Never happens with gedit... 17:46:54 how do you figure? 17:46:54 could have been worse; could have pasted trade-secret code or similar 17:46:56 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:47:00 (I wonder has that ever happened) 17:47:00 heh, it's true 17:47:14 probably. certainly people have typed many a password in irc that way 17:47:32 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:48:52 anyway, apologies all around 17:49:01 splittist: hi! where is you nowadays, London? 17:49:15 salex: accepted! (this time). 17:49:28 lukego: yep. Although hope to get back to Suisse next month. 17:50:13 heh. once in N years isn't so bad, I think. Stupid yank-and-paste is too much in my fingers. 17:50:17 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:50:40 lukego: you're still reinventing computing on the left coast? 17:50:47 oh, how quaint...a package that supplies a load.lisp but no asdf file! 17:50:58 Xach: where ? 17:51:02 splittist: indeed. jolly good fun it is so far :) 17:51:02 "library" rather 17:51:06 fe[nl]ix: crypticl 17:51:15 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 17:51:15 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 17:51:15 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 17:51:28 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:33 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:50 minion: welcome back! 17:51:51 thanks! 17:53:11 Il n'y en a que pour minion :-( 17:53:15 lisppaste: welcome back! 17:54:00 lisppaste and specbot are less chatty. 17:54:43 Ceci n'est pas un bot 17:54:57 heh! 17:56:06 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:56:16 quick, someone write a 'bot calle magritte ;) 17:56:38 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:56:47 salex: that would be a category error, surely. 17:57:06 perhaps - someone called magritte write a bot... 17:58:22 true. but harder to find. perhaps just write the bot and it can tell us how it's not Magritte 17:58:46 Nice idea though. Ceci n'est pas la bonne indentation! 17:59:01 that painting was a few minutes from my house, last year. Not sure if it still is 17:59:05 ceci n'est pas une | 17:59:16 that too! 18:00:42 I have a funny story about Magritte. I used |ceci n'est pas une pipe| as the name of a variable in my Lisp class, not making the connection that "pipe" in French argo is a blow-job. 18:01:27 Well, what was that variable for? 18:01:29 well, they could hardly argue with the truth of the statement then 18:01:47 pjb: just to illustrate that you can use any name for a variable. 18:01:55 salex: true 18:02:01 |this is not a variable name| ;-) 18:02:03 but funny, yes 18:02:12 i like pjb's variant 18:02:28 you can get in a lot of trouble with idiom! 18:02:39 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:39 This seems to always happen to me, though. When I taught Lisp in Baltimore, as an example of quoting, I used "dick" is a four-letter word. 18:02:41 |this variable name no verb?| 18:03:25 |I accidentally the whole symbol name| 18:04:17 accidentally what? 18:04:27 I was actually thinking of punning |{description of a set}| as the size of that set earlier today. 18:05:25 manuel_: The whole symbol! 18:05:32 :} 18:06:17 how can i collect the output of a loop witthout using a global variable 18:06:25 with `collect' 18:06:27 With COLLECT 18:06:43 by binding it to a variable. 18:06:52 Not even needed. 18:06:53 eh sorry i meant the output OF A FUNCTION in a loop 18:07:07 collect (myfun myloopvalue) 18:07:12 *myloopvariable 18:07:22 just as with loop while. 18:07:22 (loop for item = (something) while item collect item) 18:07:33 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 18:07:35 i see 18:07:40 in this case, collect it will work, too 18:07:46 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:07:53 ok thanks 18:07:56 (loop for i from 0 to 10 collect (* i i)) 18:08:09 right but thats not from a function 18:08:21 * is not a function? 18:08:30 :o 18:08:39 touche 18:08:39 capca: yes it is. * is a function. In any case, CL very rarely makes any difference between function calls and other expressions. 18:09:11 -!- gilberth [n=gilbert@d014020.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:22 yea sorry im used to thinking math operators not functions 18:09:40 don't worry. that will go away soon 18:09:40 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:09:51 lol :) 18:12:27 Anyone an expert on ASDF defsystem? I was defining a new system subclass and setting :default-component-class in :default-initargs and these don't seem to be 18:12:33 applied. 18:17:49 rpg_laptop: ISTR default-component-class not working right long ago. 18:18:05 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:19:20 rpg_laptop: it looks as though the offending code is still there. if you don't supply a :default-component-class in the defsystem form, the default-component-class slot always gets overwritten with whatever the parent module has for that slot. 18:20:50 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cclan.general/502 18:21:57 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.198.208] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:23:07 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:23:36 I wouldn't vouch for any of the changes I proposed in that thread, however. 18:24:29 kreuter, Thank you very much! I will stop driving myself crazy over this, then. 18:24:49 *Xach* successfully verifies a PGP signature using pure Lisp 18:25:25 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 18:25:49 rpg_laptop: I'm sorry that it's still broken in upstream. 18:26:04 Neat. If you really want to impress me, connect an SSL stream using pure Lisp. 18:26:32 PGP signature verification is much simpler than I thought. 18:26:48 I don't think the same will be the case with SSL streams. 18:27:29 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:28:36 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:37 kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 18:31:16 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.80.242] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:58 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 18:31:59 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:33:08 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 18:33:16 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:35:05 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.243.117] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:35:29 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-660304b9a46e0e3b] has joined #lisp 18:35:34 badlambda [n=badlambd@189-11-165-53.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:36:07 kreuter, is there any chance that, by supplying both a :default-component-class and a :class option to a defsystem, the system itself (not just its children) might get assigned the default-component-class as their class? 18:36:58 as the class of the system itself? 18:37:30 kreuter: I'll be available in two, or three hours. 18:37:30 Yes, it seems that way. I'm not sure I'm correctly grokking the parse-component-form. 18:38:02 rpg_laptop: I think what you might be seeing is the weirdness of class-for-type. 18:38:23 tcr: how about in 4? :) 18:38:23 kreuter, A confound is that this is a system for which the test-op is important, and so I have :in-order-to ((:test-op (:load-op )))) 18:39:04 kreuter: That'll be around midnight, I'll probably be here, but please bear with any lack of concentration. 18:39:39 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.93.14] has joined #lisp 18:39:54 actually, it'll be past midnight 18:39:55 rpg_laptop: I think that may be a red herring. 18:40:05 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:27 *tcr* afk again 18:41:57 rpg_laptop: so parse-component-form ends up setting the default-component-class slot to NIL whenever :default-component-class is not supplied in the defsystem form. 18:41:58 kreuter, weirdly, when I supply the :default-component-type, I get duplicate name errors; when I omit it, the defsystem parses correctly. Very odd. 18:42:04 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:42:16 kreuter, Thanks. This will obviously take a lot of groveling to fix... 18:42:19 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 18:42:56 rpg_laptop: and then class-for-type ends up looking at the default-component-class slot, which is typically NIL, and then failing over to the default-component-class slot in the parent, or else 'cl-source-file. 18:43:30 so d-c-c inheritance "works", but only for values that get there by having been explicitly supplied in the defsystem form. 18:45:07 rpg_laptop: can you share your .asd file? 18:45:09 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:09 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:45:37 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:45:38 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:46:08 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:14 Sure, I will lisppaste it. But I must then dash, so I didn't want to waste your time... 18:46:16 Hang on... 18:46:23 ok 18:48:27 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 18:49:01 rpg pasted "asdf file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68061 18:49:22 kreuter, OK, I got a reprieve from my meeting... 18:50:34 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2D117.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:50:42 kreuter, In that form, parse-component-form gets fooled when reading the first file descriptor, into thinking that the parent is interp-cl-file, when it should be ac3-tests, I think. 18:50:54 Maybe I've gonked the syntax somehow. 18:52:45 kreuter, It's the ac3-test system that fails to parse for me. But it parses correctly when I omit the default-component-class argument. 18:53:30 obsethryl_ [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 18:54:01 I don't think you're doing anything wrong. 18:54:24 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:54:25 Maybe I did blow it. Seems like parse-component-form does /not/ remove the :class keyword. I wonder if that's messing things up. 18:54:39 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Client Quit] 18:54:55 rpg_laptop: defsystem removes :class itself. 18:54:58 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:55:46 kreuter, Thanks. I just spotted that. Hm. 18:55:57 Let me put a backtrace in that paste. 18:56:28 ok 18:56:49 rpg annotated #68061 with "backtrace from error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68061#1 18:56:55 Xach: cool that they used your pic for the official jmc bio on lisp50 :) 18:57:35 aaron_ [n=eren@78.178.45.244] has joined #lisp 18:57:55 kreuter, I /assume/ that the recursive call to parse-component-form should have the actual ac3-test system as the parent argument, yes? 18:58:26 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.221] has joined #lisp 18:59:05 yes. 18:59:26 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:37 lukego: heh, yeah. 18:59:38 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:41 erm. you are commenting out both :default-component-class and interp-cl-file, right? 18:59:50 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:01:50 uh 19:02:10 just for good measure, have you done (remhash "ac3-test" asdf::*defined-systems*)? 19:02:18 hmm, RPG's biography page contains the biography of GLS 19:02:24 -!- ths [n=ths@84.154.198.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:35 ths [n=ths@p549AC617.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:36 kreuter, No, will do. 19:02:44 kreuter, yes. 19:03:08 *michaelw* retracts statement after reading 19:03:26 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:11 rpg_laptop: the expansion of defsystem registers the system in that hash before parse-component-form gets called, so errors in p-c-f can make old syntax errors live forever. 19:04:34 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:04:35 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:23 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:17 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:07:09 kreuter, d'oh. That was it. 19:07:21 heh 19:07:25 ouch. 19:07:47 rpg_laptop: which was it? 19:07:59 kreuter, remhash fixed it. 19:08:06 okay. 19:08:11 ain't asdf grand? ;) 19:08:38 kreuter, At least it parsed now. Am inspecting to see if the system came through correctly. 19:08:45 kreuter, Thank you /so/ much... 19:08:48 sheesh. you want everything today :) 19:08:54 np 19:09:15 Xach: care to explain your asdf-install replacement ideas? 19:10:14 jlpeters [n=james@97-113-45-15.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:22 michaelw: I have a lot, and they're all over the map. 19:10:54 get a decompressor, an archive extractor and a gpg signature verifier, and you can have one which tracks new versions! 19:11:42 [ 2) ??? 3) Profit! (of which I take 1% of everything above $1m, right? right?) ] 19:11:54 this is a completely different corporation from wigflip 19:11:56 sorry. 19:12:15 rpg_laptop: I don't know if there's any strong reason why defsystem should register the system before system initialization has finished. I know I've been bitten by mysterious lingering state like you just saw. 19:12:41 I guess it could be that something during parse-component-form uses the system namespace. 19:13:46 michaelw: i'd like something that doesn't rely on system binaries like "tar" and "gzip" which aren't available on windows and which differ on different unixes. i'd like something that knows the graph of software relationships up front, not piece by piece. i'd like something that makes everything reliably available all the time, rather than as reliable as the dependency with the least reliable file hosting. i'd like it to work well with software that is not released 19:13:53 kreuter, Thanks very much. I must dash now. I will try to get back on later... Off to delayed meeting... 19:14:03 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:14:31 michaelw: i'd like it to be easy to use for users, library authors, and the maintainer of the system infrastructure, in that order 19:15:23 but a lot of those important parts are quite vague in my mind. i've found that the technical barriers are not as tall as i thought. the technical barriers aren't the tallest ones, though. 19:15:30 are distributions/package systems anywhere on your map? 19:15:39 yes. 19:15:56 okay 19:16:37 i'd like for people to be able to write an application against a known set of libraries/versions that won't change because someone updated a wiki page. 19:16:48 or left university. 19:17:33 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:18:57 I want people to be able to get into this system by downloading and loading a single Lisp file, in whatever Lisp implementation they're using right now. 19:19:26 Xach: exactly! 19:19:54 i have that part working. the rest will be harder :) 19:20:04 *drewc* is working on something like this in his top secret offshore laboratory. 19:20:36 Xach: I am not sure the "single Lisp file" restriction is very important 19:21:00 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-082-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:07 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:16 Yes, let's make it ultra-simple. 19:21:19 Xach: i want to help! this seems like something that should be a part of the (new! improved!) common-lisp.net 19:21:31 can I make a feature request? 19:21:35 Sure. 19:21:44 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [] 19:22:02 I'd also like to demonstrate a system that, even if it is a failure, demonstrates tools and techniques that could be useful towards a better effort... 19:22:06 can it have a layer of indirection between "get me this system" and "run these asdf commands", so that people can experiment with defsystems other than asdf? 19:22:26 kreuter: noted 19:22:44 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:23:46 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:23:55 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 19:25:34 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 19:26:33 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 19:27:06 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:27:25 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 19:27:43 £ that won't change because someone 19:27:51 oops 19:27:59 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:28:02 " that won't change because someone updated a wiki page" - madness! 19:30:40 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-6-119.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:32:31 drewc: I tipped my hand a little early. I don't have much of anything to go on but a small bit of some very early (but encouraging) infrastructure, and a bunch of random ideas. 19:32:43 -!- Soulman_ [n=knute@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:32:53 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:02 and a desire to do something better instead of pissing and moaning all the time 19:33:06 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:06 Xach: it's the infrastructure i'm primarily interested in.. 19:33:11 and that desire, 19:33:35 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:55 I've made it a point to, over the next year, do something about every perceived fault of CL that is within my power to fix. 19:34:17 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.93.14] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:35 the way distributions do it is to have some kind of trusted authority that will sign off on a version of software 19:34:43 or at least sign off on authors 19:34:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 19:35:42 Xach: can you tell me (or show me) your ideas WRT the infrastructure? Also, how can i get involved? :) 19:37:30 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-6-119.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:37:49 -!- obsethryl_ [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:41:32 drewc: well, my initial idea was to see how easily i could make a small file that had enough portability crud to make a network connection to a web server (or proxy) and fetch a file. you could call that phase 0. phase 0 fetches an uncompressed archive file in a really simple file format i threw together; in that archive is chipz and then a compressed archive of archive. from there the system could fetch compressed tarballs. i also just finished a real simple PGP s 19:41:55 " 19:41:58 opps 19:42:05 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:11 Xach: Why bother with downloading? Just put everyting in a single "self-extracting" file. 19:42:14 "real simple PGP ... " is where you were cut off 19:42:41 pjb: i thought about that too. i haven't really decided at the moment. 19:43:26 drewc: real simple PGP signature verifier. so you could go from a single file to almost what asdf-install does already, except without some of the non-Lisp fragile dependency on "/usr/bin/tar" doing stuff like GNU tar, for example. 19:44:19 pjb: partly i think it might be a psychological barrier to loading a 20k .lisp file vs. a 1 megabyte lisp file. 19:44:34 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:54 Xach: yes, but if it's a 1MB with batteries included... 19:45:33 I appear to be getting a race condition where slime reads the port to connect to swank; tries to connect and fails. I try again immediately it works :( 19:45:47 pjb: Robert Maas could complain! 19:45:55 -!- bhyde_ is now known as bhyde 19:46:00 :-) 19:46:07 pjb: well, 1MB of batteries wouldn't get you much. you would still need to fetch more to do anything useful. 19:46:27 Xach: remember, Firefox is 50MB+ 19:46:36 good experiences with processing PDF files? how? 19:46:43 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 19:46:46 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:49 lukego: i had good experiences with cl-pdf-parser, part of cl-pdf 19:46:57 *michaelw* too 19:47:21 ./clbuild world --main-projects is dumping me in ldb :( 19:47:27 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 19:47:30 I used it to remove old page numbers and patch new ones onto existing PDFs 19:47:37 pjb: firefox is much smaller than that. 19:48:17 drewc: do you have a batting list? you should blog it! 19:48:59 lukego - i gave up on world, and sbcl head 19:49:33 nikodemus_: I should really. First thing i'm starting with is the front page of common-lisp.net and cleaning up cliki some. 19:49:46 so what's a fast way on a vanilla Mac to get a working Lisp environment up with cl-pdf available? 19:49:49 -!- jlpeters [n=james@97-113-45-15.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [] 19:49:54 clbuild? 19:50:01 :P 19:50:10 clbuild is failing in all recent attempts to use it 19:50:24 I will try redoing it from scratch though 19:50:32 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has left #lisp 19:50:39 *nikodemus_* goes home 19:50:46 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:50:48 Xach: well, the executable of firefox is 11 MB here, and /opt/firefox is 25 MB. Still the same order. 19:50:53 Xach: as I said before, I am not sure that this minimalism is needed. What's wrong with downloading a, say, 5 MB tarball with a known-good combination of libraries? 19:51:06 michaelw: tarball? 19:51:15 shar archive, whatever 19:51:39 *drewc* prefers Xach's approach. 19:51:47 keep it in lisp 19:51:57 Xach: just something you can tell users to drop on their hard drives, and the action starts from there 19:52:04 michaelw: like pjb says, a lisp shar equivalent? 19:52:27 guys, you're prematurely optimizing. 19:52:28 fine with me, it's a detail 19:52:40 man, a lisp shar? what the heck are you guys doing here 19:52:45 lukego - can do ./clbuild cl-pdf on my mac and it works out at this moment I have one local patch, and slime and cl-pdf in this clbuild 19:52:46 Xach: the question is whether you want to support various cl implementations or only one. I'd do only one. Then a shar-like is easily feasible. 19:53:04 there's a reason the world went to non-executable archive formats. 19:53:06 the patch adds cl-unicode to the projects file 19:53:21 foom: not really. In Mac, there are SEA. 19:53:23 pjb: Which one do you suggest? 19:53:42 pjb: not anymore. 19:53:43 i pulled my sbcl via port, it's 1.0.20 19:53:45 Xach: I prefer clisp, but sbcl might be a good choice too. 19:53:53 SBCL sucks ass on Windows. 19:53:56 what about CCL? 19:54:08 don't forget GCL! And POPLOG! 19:54:09 Xach: why did clbuild not fill this need, do you know? 19:54:16 why does everybody jump on the archive format? it's completely unimportant... 19:54:24 clisp is more cross platform, true. 19:54:26 i'm using aquamacs, and the slime is workable but slightly wonky on connects 19:54:35 michaelw: i want it to work on lispworks on windows. 19:54:51 Xach: and ACL on vax! 19:55:06 lukego: i can't use clbuild because i'm behind a firewall part of the time and all the VCS stuff uses funky ports. 19:55:11 *drewc* is serious .. CL has a standard and many implementations .. that should be embraced 19:55:25 Xach: provide a zip file, tell users to unpack it. 19:55:28 drewc: yes, but perhaps not for newbies. 19:55:56 michaelw: i think i will stick with providing a small lisp file and telling users to load it. 19:55:57 -!- aaron_ [n=eren@78.178.45.244] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:56:06 drewc: also mind the support load. It would be easier to provide help to newbies if they all used only one implementation. 19:56:14 pjb: indeed, but do we support only newbies in this endevour? 19:56:27 i'd personally like to develop a system that i would use 19:56:34 not just one that i have to support :) 19:57:02 This is also for my own use, too, so I don't mind if it doesn't catch on. I'm a little tired of bootstrapping environments by hand. 19:58:03 Xach: okay, fine. I was trying to tell you that time could better be spent on the hard parts instead of the artificially hard ones. YMMV, and all. 19:58:07 I think if you build something better than asdf-install, everyone will immediately flock to it, no matter how many technical disagreements the rest of #lisp have. 19:58:10 Well, for our own developments, we still want the latest top-notch libraries. For newbies, we'd rather have the most stable ones. 19:58:14 michaelw: but you're right, too. some of this reminds me of the strong desire to make, say, cross-platform executables in lisp, without an actual idea about what to make. :) 19:58:19 michaelw: FWIW, i have/had plans to include a tarball/zip/whatever of the most popular libraries + glue on the (new! improved!) common-lisp.net 19:58:54 michaelw: it's so much easier to get a sense of progress by attacking the artificially hard parts... 19:59:00 something a newb could just drop in and go with. 19:59:00 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:18 I'm wondering. Would it be possible to add a CL language pack to DrScheme? 19:59:34 Xach: the last time I played the bootstrapping game, I wrote a thing that used dodgy portability code for the initial bootstrap, then pulled in the libraries of principled stuff, then redefined itself in terms of the principled stuff. 19:59:38 that i likely put together monthly using clbuild ... 19:59:59 though in my case, the dodgy portability code mostly just shelled out, and that's outside your scope. 20:00:24 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:00:25 pjb: would that entail writing a cl-in-plt? 20:00:26 kreuter: what's an instance of dodgy vs. principled in this case? 20:00:27 okay './clbuild build slime cl-pdf' is looking good! 20:00:40 drewc: I don't know. Perhaps. 20:01:49 Xach: bozo-HTTP versus Drakma, faux-HTML-parsing versus CML. that sort of thing. 20:01:54 ah 20:01:59 drewc: yeah, provide some snapshot, and a way to build a new snapshot from there. basically like clbuild, except canned. then we can come to the interesting bits, namely versioning, dependencies, etc.. 20:02:23 lukego: :) it has to work occasionally or you'd give up completely 20:02:26 kreuter: i've definitely got the bozo-http thing going. 20:02:39 though it's not nearly as bozo as sbcl-asdf-install-bozo 20:02:42 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-62.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:02:48 michaelw: i was just going for a do-the-simplest-thing-that-could-work approach. I think a lot of newbs just want somewhere to go that is 'official 20:02:49 ' 20:03:01 and get the 'official' libraries etc. 20:03:28 Soulman [n=knute@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:58 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:00 has anybody tried out mkennedy's Lispy? 20:04:02 having somthing on common-lisp.net will give it that air of authority the masses require in order to be told it's ok to use something. /cynic 20:04:08 I think I also cheated at sockets by talking through bash that translated /dev/tcp//http into into a socket. 20:04:16 michaelw: I tried it out. I need to revisit it (and cl-librarian). 20:04:29 kreuter: nice 20:04:33 Xach: i have a cl-librarian fork you might want to play with as well. 20:04:35 ah, yeah, cl-librarian was also on my list 20:04:44 michaelw: I remember liking the ideas behind Lispy. 20:05:00 michaelw: i would not feel bad if all i ever did was make an easier way for people to try lispy. 20:05:02 lots of things turn out to be easy if you're willing to do them wrong. 20:05:05 (or something equivalent) 20:05:05 i used it to bootstrap things for about a full year before deciding clbuild was a better approach. 20:05:40 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:09:11 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:09:34 -!- Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has left #lisp 20:10:37 Xach: another issue is that some libraries are basically not released, they just escape into the wild through some version control system... 20:11:04 michaelw: yeah. 20:11:38 some people think of that as a feature 20:11:39 ooh! ooh! don't support those libraries! 20:11:43 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["farinn ad sofa"] 20:11:46 okay I'm in a state of lispy goodness now :) 20:11:48 kreuter: yeah, who uses "slime" anyway? 20:11:54 sounds icky 20:12:27 slime's a borderline case anyway, since it covaries with the implementation version (at least for SBCL) 20:13:45 michaelw: it's also possible i'm shooting at the wrong starting point, as probably someone who wants to try lisp will start from having no lisp at all, not from having a favorite lisp and just sitting around waiting for someone to make it easy to load libraries. 20:13:52 i'm not ready to think about that part yet :) 20:14:09 ReadyLisp, LispBox, etc 20:14:15 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 20:14:51 I'm a believer in the idea that the result will be better if you're working on a problem you actually have. 20:16:56 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@static-71-243-120-39.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:17:05 gonzojive [n=red@DNab422412.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:17:57 schasi [n=schasi@p54A2704E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:14 Xach: I liked the feel of Locomotive , it was installed in a jiffy, I could start a web server and an editor via some minimal GUI, and start playing around. 20:18:47 michaelw: cool, i'll check it out 20:19:13 iirc, there was no upgrade path whatsoever, though, so this is really just to get your feet wet 20:19:32 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:19:47 michaelw: i think that's a useful thing to provide too 20:20:28 yes, in particular for some of the more active CL libraries 20:20:32 hi, do you know a good documentation or book about lisp code optimization? 20:20:45 l4ndfo: Lisp in Small Pieces talks about that 20:20:58 Xach: thanks, i will check it 20:21:37 l4ndfo: you mean writing optimal lisp code, or writing the optimizer phase for a compiler? 20:21:44 silenius_ [n=jl@dslb-088-073-082-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:07 writing optimal lisp code 20:22:21 drewc, common-lisp.net and authority is cool, but how about some cooperation w/ lisp.org? 20:22:25 i want to learn about how to play with the declares ... :) 20:22:31 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-082-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:38 *tic* thinks aloud 20:22:59 tic: are you on the board at the ALU? 20:23:02 l4ndfo: strictly speaking, it's all implementation-dependent. 20:23:15 oh, sorry. 20:23:25 drewc, no I'm not. but I bet you can get in touch with someone that is. 20:23:51 Maybe it wouldn't make any sense. I don't know. 20:23:55 tic: do you know the ALU well? have you tried to work with them? :) 20:23:58 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-6-119.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:10 drewc, I do not, and from your question I'm guessing it's just not worth it, eh? 20:24:19 l4ndfo: that said, if you declare the types of things whose types you know, some compilers will transform your code into faster code under various OPTIMIZE settings. 20:24:30 tic: they still owe me the kiwi source AFAIC 20:24:35 into faster versions than what they compile to by default, that is. 20:24:42 tic: it helps, i think, to understand the context of the ALU and where they're coming from and their goals. 20:25:21 tic: whatever is up with ALU or not, it's just not very important at the moment, I believe 20:25:49 kreuter: yes i know, just i have been playing with that for 2 days now and sometimes i cannot force the compiler to do a cheap thing cheap... 20:25:53 yeah, i don't think what shows up in the URL bar is a major barrier 20:26:04 if you make a really super thing, you could call it something other than lisp.org 20:26:11 l4ndfo: what implementation? 20:26:18 Xach, I've tried finding out, but I couldn't get further than "It's a real organization", "Their goal is to organize the ILCs" 20:26:37 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:26:49 *Xach* doesn't know much about the ALU either 20:26:51 tic: that's about all they do nowadays. 20:26:53 drewc, owe in what way? Is it related to that poem from the future about source availability? 20:27:07 kreuter, so what's stopping them from extending their mission? 20:27:21 oh well, nevermind. the URL isn't that important, I guess. 20:27:22 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:32 tic: probably inertia, mostly. 20:27:44 kreuter, not to be underestimated! 20:27:44 kreuter: sbcl, i tried cmucl and clisp, but they were slower for me 20:27:51 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 20:28:07 l4ndfo: cmucl and clisp don't compile everything by default. 20:28:16 l4ndfo: can you share your code? 20:28:20 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 20:29:07 (by pasting into paste.lisp.org, for example?) 20:29:26 kreuter: yes, i will in a moment 20:29:37 *tic* looks through StackOverflow for unanswered Lisp-related questions. 20:29:43 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:31:11 l4ndfo: in general, there's no general answer to your question, however. 20:31:17 i have a function i'm trying to return multiple values from, when I return a list, i get a two item list (string, (simple-vector 2)) 20:31:22 tic: I hosted the ALU wiki at lisp.tech.coop for quite a while because the ALU didn't care about it. When they decided they wanted it back, they also promised the source to their new wiki engine. 20:31:31 kreuter: http://people.inf.elte.hu/bege/rl-buffer.lisp, sorry for the lot code, check the read-int function at the bottom, i cannot optimize that dpb call 20:31:36 when I change list to values, i get string, nil as values. 20:31:39 bougyman, so return (values my-string (simple-vector 2)) 20:31:49 bougyman, multiple-value-bind is your friend. 20:31:53 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 20:31:59 bougyman, http://l1sp.org/cl/m-v-b 20:32:03 kreuter: yes i know, but maybe there is a godd collection of common optimization practices somewhere ... 20:32:05 tic: i've tried that macro, it does the same thing 20:32:14 bougyman, what's your code again? can you share it? 20:32:20 that link is not found, too 20:32:24 yeah, one sec. 20:32:25 bummer. 20:32:34 bougyman, http://l1sp.org/cl/multiple-value-bind then? 20:33:10 bougyman, (multiple-value-bind (string vector) (something-that-returns-a-string-and-a-vector) ...) 20:33:10 tic: no fuzzy completion for me 20:33:17 Xach, apparently not! 20:33:20 bougyman pasted "returning multiple values" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68067 20:33:30 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-660304b9a46e0e3b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:33:51 kreuter: sorry the optimize settings nit in the file, it is (optimize speed (safety 0) (space 0) (debug 1) (compilation-speed 0)) 20:34:09 bougyman, that's not the right code is it? 20:34:12 i was told I could just change list to values in that. 20:34:16 yes, it is. 20:34:16 bougyman, yes. 20:34:34 when I change values to list, the second item returned is always nil. 20:34:47 it'll return whatever your (with-output-to-string) form outputs and matches. 20:34:54 bougyman: VALUES is the thing to use, and then you need to figure out your other problem. 20:34:59 right, because you never set it anywhere. 20:35:03 what's the other problem? 20:35:06 i set it in the when 20:35:09 bougyman, you do (let (full-match matches) .... matches) 20:35:14 and you never touch matches. 20:35:18 tic: incorrect 20:35:21 i touch matches in the when 20:35:30 *tic* shuts up. 20:35:38 like I said, it works when i return a list. 20:35:52 bougyman: the second value is not nil when you return a list? 20:36:04 no 20:36:07 * (type-of (cadr (mpc:status))) 20:36:08 (SIMPLE-VECTOR 2) 20:37:04 is the (return) in the when possible mucking things up? 20:37:19 l4ndfo: you'll probably want a tighter type for pos in endian-loop than just fixnum (already (and unsigned-byte fixnum), if it actually is true, would help) 20:37:21 it's not doing so when I return a list. 20:37:50 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:10 l4ndfo: why are you setting the symbol-function of get-endianness, rather than using DEFUN? 20:38:24 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 20:38:51 also, why do you think that that will return the endianness? 20:38:52 bougyman: works for me. can you paste a transcript of both versions (list and values)? 20:39:52 kreuter: aa good question, as i remember i had problems using that during the compilation inside the macros if i defun that 20:40:07 was the DEFUN inside the EVAL-WHEN? 20:40:21 anyway, these are just speedbumps. 20:40:43 sure, Xach 20:41:44 ths_ [n=ths@p549AFFE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:17 pkhuong: yes pos there is unsigned, but as i see it doesn't help, why do you think it would be better than? 20:44:24 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 20:44:38 bougyman annotated #68067 with "run with 'list'" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68067#1 20:44:45 l4ndfo: so, do you get 5 notes about the compiler not optimizing the call to %DPB? 20:44:56 what is a fixnum actually on a 32bit platform? is it a 32 bit integer, or it has shorter range? 20:45:04 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:45:04 kreuter: i have six :) 20:45:18 okay, sorry, I'm on x86-64. 20:45:26 l4ndfo: it depends on the implementation. 20:45:28 (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) 20:45:36 bougyman annotated #68067 with "run with 'values'" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68067#2 20:46:17 it seems that if matches is in scope for the list it should be in scope for values. 20:46:54 stassats: 29 for me 20:47:16 bougyman: what's mpc:status? 20:47:24 bougyman: is it different from read-until-done? 20:47:45 so lisp can use the fast operations (i need bit operations) only fixnums, but i doesn't provide the "usual" range with them ... sounds not so good 20:48:02 l4ndfo: it depends on the implementation. 20:48:06 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 20:48:19 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 20:48:20 l4ndfo: that's actually not the case. 20:49:05 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["eaten by grue"] 20:49:37 i would like to agree, but with these simple bit operations my lisp code is quite slow compared to other language 20:50:15 l4ndfo: i can assure you that's not inherent to anything SBCL does. 20:50:33 bougyman: does mpc:status call read-until-done somewhere? 20:51:42 pkhuong: if you tell me an other lisp for linux which is free, i will try 20:51:45 Xach: yes. 20:51:54 mpc:status returns the result of read-until-done 20:52:03 bougyman: could you paste that? 20:52:08 l4ndfo: hang on a sec. I have to stare at your code a bit more. 20:52:23 hah. 20:52:28 l4ndfo: huh? 20:52:28 thanks, Xach 20:52:39 i still want to see it! 20:52:45 (let ((mpd-output (read-until-done (mstream mpd)))) 20:52:51 i wasn't binding it to multiple values in status. 20:52:56 bougyman: there's yer problem right there 20:52:59 so it only returned the first, every time, no matter what. 20:52:59 possum in the crankcase 20:53:15 pkhuong: i would like to try a lisp impl what is inherent to anything :) 20:53:23 bougyman: TRACE would have helped a bit there. 20:54:16 I'm not 100% sure but doesn't SBCL also support unboxed unsigned 32-bit integers? 20:54:20 Xach: how can I make that let do the right thing? 20:54:51 that's where multiple-value-list does the job, correct? 20:54:54 bougyman: the right thing isn't an absolute. there are a lot of options. 20:54:54 kreuter: acc to the profiling results the busyest functions are (not surprisingly) buffer-read and buffer-write, but unfortunatly i cannot optimize the bit ops there too 20:55:05 bougyman: that's one option. 20:55:43 l4ndfo: so, dbp isn't really a particularly primitive operation (on machines other than PDP-10s anyway). it's simpler to use LOGIOR, in general. 20:55:48 phadthai: right, SBCL can emit code that works on unboxed integers with the asm you'd expect. 20:56:41 but SBCL might be missing some optimization here. I'm still poking around. 20:56:49 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:00 qeb`away [n=robb@084202208058.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 20:57:06 -!- qeb`away [n=robb@084202208058.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:45 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AC617.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:06 fwiw, you can't detect endianness by regular means in CL. 20:58:48 Xach: what are others? 20:58:54 kreuter: hm , i dont see how it would be easy with logior, but i will check the change of dpb more seriously ... 21:00:31 l4ndfo: it's hard to compile dpb to anything but mask src, shift, mask dst and or together, except for the mask on src which might be elided in obvious ciscumstances 21:00:48 pkhuong: unless you're on a PDP-10 :) 21:01:52 -!- ths_ [n=ths@p549AFFE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:02:38 pkhuong: but masking and shifting is the most efficient operations, if you know that you are working on integers, as i feel this latter info is missing for my lisp compiler 21:03:23 it's not missing, but the compiler might not notice that it's applicable. 21:03:29 erm 21:04:10 that the numbers here are all small enough for the shifting and masking to be shifting and masking of integers modulo 2^32. 21:06:07 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab422412.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 21:06:49 unfortunately just usually, the double is 64 bit long 21:07:00 but in case of read-int write-int, yes 21:08:53 robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:19 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 21:10:12 you can probably make it work by rewriting endian-loop 21:10:37 right now the compiler can' 21:10:59 so, two things 21:11:06 t quite figure out the real range of pos 21:11:07 oh, jsnell's going to save the day. 21:11:11 l4ndfo: erh, no, shifts are pretty slow, especially if you do a lot of them. Moreover, your code can't guarantee that the results even fit in machine registers, so unlike C, the compiler emits correct but slow code. 21:11:15 right, that's one of them. 21:11:20 you can either declare a more accurate type to it 21:11:39 or rewrite the loop in a way that the compiler can figure out 21:11:52 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:13 (there was nothing else obviously wrong there, so back to kreuter for the second thing) 21:12:39 well, it may not matter if you get the first thing, but I don't think we subsitute constants. 21:13:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.147] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:14:08 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:14:52 which constants? 21:15:01 oh, wow, some badness around the dpb/byte transforms 21:15:09 +bits-per-byte+ in the bytespec. 21:15:16 not as smart about constants as we are about literal values 21:16:03 oh, interesting. didn't notice that, since everywhere else the constants were so carefully substituted with #. or , :-) 21:16:11 ah, defparameter 21:16:23 ... use defconstant for constants 21:16:28 oh, they're not constants. 21:16:30 eww... 21:16:31 the compiler will be able to fold them. 21:16:36 sorry. 21:16:41 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:49 well, we certainly don't substitute variables! 21:16:56 ths [n=ths@X43a7.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:17:20 kreuter: Basically, I'm ready. 21:17:24 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:28 but I think the type of POS is either not sufficiently narrow, or getting screwed up by the assignment in ENDIAN-LOOP. 21:17:31 well, there you go. Two issues: can't work with machine registers if the data isn't guaranteed to fit in them, and you should use defconstant for constants. 21:18:23 tcr: uh, I have to go to catch a train in about 3 minutes. basically, all I'm wondering what in the world breaks when you move the reader to a separate package? 21:18:43 pos must be (mod #.n-w-bits). 21:19:30 kreuter: I know that alexandria breaks; I'm reluctant to do a whole clbuild because a) I'm not using it, b) my cpu isn't that fast. 21:19:31 or even (- n-w-bits 8)... And all the big endian code is noise. 21:19:35 i didn't know about defconstant, but sounds good, thanks :) 21:19:58 kreuter: I could rebuild clx, and mcclim which I suppose may be candidates for sbcl-specific code; I have them available. 21:20:45 tcr: okay, I can do the build. um. can you remind me how I can pull from your public repositories into an existing git repo (or is that a bad idea)? 21:20:45 kreuter: I think I'll stay awake for the next 2 hours. Perhaps we'll have a chance to talk later. 21:21:09 okay. yeah, train-time. 21:21:13 later, #lisp. 21:21:16 kreuter: I'll pull in the latest changes, resolve any conflicts (there shouldn't be any, but just to make sure) 21:21:19 cya 21:21:24 pkhuong: what does it mean? (- n-w-bits 8) or (mod #.n-w-bits) 21:21:28 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A2704E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:21:29 kreuter: thanks for your help 21:21:34 shoot. I'm not in screen. 21:21:41 -!- kreuter [n=user@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:23:07 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 21:24:06 l4ndfo: If you want code to fit in a machine int, (mod #.(* (1- +bytes-per-integer) +bits-per-byte))) 21:24:37 i just changed the dpb part to this: (+ (ash code 8) (aref bytes offset)) and it immediately doubles the speed ... 21:25:12 but it is only good for little-endian, i have to organize a lot for this later ... 21:25:23 there is no big endian in CL. 21:25:34 endianness is hidden by the implementation, as per the standard. 21:26:20 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 21:26:21 and in general, it's still often better to do it that way than with dpb, if only because it's pretty hard for a compiler to prove that the destination field is empty. 21:26:28 hm, good to know, then i can eliminate the endian-loop ... 21:26:34 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:37 why don't you start with this? :) 21:26:44 l4ndfo: I did. 21:27:09 sorry, then maybe it is too late for me now .. 21:27:13 29 minutes ago, I told you you can't detect endianness by regular means in CL 21:27:26 adeht: Are you there? 21:27:41 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:46 but now i have a tons of tips to improve, so thank you much the help 21:28:01 -!- ace4016 is now known as Atomsk 21:28:39 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 21:31:41 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:53 birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 21:33:30 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:33:56 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:34:04 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 21:37:52 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:38:48 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:49 tcr: what's up? 21:45:03 oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-126-249.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:45:13 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:46 holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:58 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.221] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:47:33 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:49:11 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:29 lispm [n=joswig@e177145104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:53:18 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:54:01 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:20 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:12 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:21 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:02:05 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:25 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:03:46 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:52 Another question for the group: 22:06:53 If you have multiple (eval-when (compile) ...) in the same file what are the dependencies between them? 22:06:55 Can you only refer to functions which have been previously defined in previous eval-when? In this one? What about mutual recursion? 22:06:57 Is this defined anywhere? In cltl or another book? 22:08:09 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:17 sebell [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:49 rvirding: as long as you call functions after they've been defined, you're good. 22:15:02 you might get style warnings, but the code will run fine. 22:15:19 how do you mean? 22:16:16 Reason I ask is because I implementing it in a lisp system I am doing so I was wondering how CL did it? 22:16:34 i mean that a function call must execute after the function is defined. 22:16:34 nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:25 so far I am with you, but can a function in one eval-when call a function in another? 22:17:28 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:17:47 rvirding: as long as the callee is defined by the time the caller calls it. 22:18:35 ok, so in one respect they are all mutually recursive, if they are defined at call time 22:19:34 erh sure. defun's semantics are closer to an assignment than to a binding. 22:20:56 hmm. ok, thanks. I must think some more about that. 22:21:07 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:22 I am implementing LFE (Lisp Flavoured Erlang) on top of the Erlang VM 22:21:54 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:22:06 alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:11 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-230-35-86.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:15 does anyone have an example program using cl-pdf to process PDFs handy? 22:24:39 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:46 I don't really understand PDFs and pulling up pdf:*document* in the slime inspector isn't optimal for understanding what's in this file of mine :) 22:24:57 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:25:00 -!- dialtone_ is now known as dialtone 22:27:46 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:27:46 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-230-35-86.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:13 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-230-35-86.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:30 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@host14-140-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:15 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-230-35-86.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:10 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:01 Bucciarati [n=buccia@host105-129-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:37:46 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17DCC6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:52 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:42:50 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17DCC6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:45:02 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:45:10 _adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 22:46:42 parodyoflanguage [n=klh@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:50 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:20 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone!"] 22:48:50 -!- silenius_ [n=jl@dslb-088-073-082-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:51 pkhuong: thanks for replying 22:50:46 rvirding lfe is lisp implementation on erlang vm ? 22:51:03 yes 22:51:19 because i had the impression it was lispy syntax with erlang semantics 22:51:30 I only hope LFE will be interesting/useful. Makes me wonder about termite and etos. 22:51:53 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177145104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:52:17 both in a way, it is a proper lisp with most lispy things but it is neither CL nor Scheme but a lisp with the features and limitiations of the ERlang VM 22:52:42 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17CD1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:15 my problems with erlang had to do with the primitive repl and the restrictions on interactive development 22:53:19 for example there is no mutable data or global data on the erlang vm 22:53:27 strange semantics for code swapping 22:53:44 if you can improve on those to be more direct like in lisp i'd be extremely interested 22:53:47 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:48 not strange, defined and usable in real world 22:54:05 well code swapping is a vm feature 22:54:29 rvirding i tried implementing a server that i wanted to update the code for without shutting it down or dropping any connections 22:54:35 it turned out to be extremely complicated 22:54:39 VM really only runs compiled code, no provision for intepreted code like in lisp 22:55:09 did you use OTP or roll it yourself? 22:55:30 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-230-35-86.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:38 i tried rolling it myself first since i believed it would be easy (just redefine functions i want changed) 22:55:43 like i'd do in CL 22:56:08 but then i found out about code versions 22:56:12 no in Erlang a module is both the unit of compilation and code handling 22:56:20 tried to see how i'd do it with otp 22:56:29 bad documentation and lack of examples lost me 22:57:13 well it works 22:57:20 i'm sure it does 22:57:22 With the erlang model, on-line transition to new code is well-defined, as opposed to the CL "load some new stuff on top of some old stuff and hope for the best". 22:57:23 but its not simple 22:57:43 it doesnt have to be like that foom 22:57:58 in many cases you have full control of what/when you change things 22:58:03 its been enough for me 22:58:09 we found that while many systems allow updating of code on the fly most don't clearly define what happens 22:58:32 then you have the problem of roll-back 22:58:53 i don't disagree 22:58:57 slyrus___ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:59 -!- slyrus___ is now known as slyrus_ 22:59:11 it is one thing to redefine functions while you are developing, it is another to change code on a running system 22:59:25 i'm certain the formalised code swapping in erlang and all the procedures you have to follow are important 22:59:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:59:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:59:49 but it doesn't make things easy when you are developing your server and you want maximum productivity 22:59:53 Erlang has only one method and we gave priority to doing code upgrading in productin systems 23:00:01 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:13 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:19 you're users will love however when you server never goes down 23:00:22 :) 23:00:45 my CL servers seldom do 23:00:52 but i get your point 23:01:13 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F859.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:33 its just that i find CL extremely productive and erlang less so when developing interactively 23:01:36 the types of systems we were designing for were telephone exchanges :-) 23:02:00 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:18 our view of the web is that nothing is really dependable and robust :-) 23:02:48 but you are right about the interactive development 23:02:55 I find it rather ironic, though, that the telephone switches are designed so that you can reboot the control card without breaking things, anyhow, so it doesn't really matter that you can do online upgrades. :) 23:03:26 I try to alleviate it in LFE by allowing you to slurp in a module into the LFE and test the functions interpreted. 23:03:55 Next version will allow you to define functions dynamically in REPL. 23:04:14 But you won't be able to call them from compiled code. 23:04:36 Not yet anyway but it would be possible by compiling "module" on the fly. 23:05:39 the irony for me is that i quite like the prolog inspired syntax 23:05:51 well you usually have at least 2 processors in parallel so you can stop one, upgrade/reboot, and then restart it and do the same to the other 23:06:09 we wanted to do the same on 1 machine 23:06:24 and dont care much about lisp syntax in erlang but i'd go for improved repl and more interactivity 23:06:35 also handle upgrading on distributed systems as well, which you can 23:06:53 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:03 I am doing LFE because I like the lisp syntax 23:07:25 also handling code in erlang is more complicated, code is not data 23:07:53 well it is but it is much more complicated and definitely not 1-to-1 like lisp 23:08:34 that's why I am asking these weirdo questions about CL 23:08:43 I am doing eval-when now 23:08:48 ? 23:08:50 :-) 23:10:16 well weirdo *you* of course do ask weirdo questions :-) but mine are weird and typical implementation type questions 23:13:58 -!- sebell [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 23:15:28 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:21:22 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:23:40 -!- xristos [n=xristos@93-97-222-156.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:23:48 xristos [n=xristos@93-97-222-156.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:24:32 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:38 *rvirding* says good night everyone 23:25:54 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:27:55 <3 (defmethod print-object ... ) 23:30:04 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:30:18 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 23:34:28 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:38 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:39 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 23:42:10 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 23:43:11 <3 defstruct for its automatically created print machinery 23:45:42 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-65-26-178-248.indy.res.rr.com] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 23:47:02 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:50 I need to learn to use defstruct, hehe 23:47:57 haven't looked into it yet :| 23:50:19 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:31 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:48 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-230-35-86.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:55:30 *Xach* is guessing nobody has tried albert in a recent sbcl 23:55:45 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 23:55:48 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:55:54 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has left #lisp 23:55:57 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:56:35 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@67.201.133.74] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:56:43 Is there a way to know the name of structure from its instance?? 23:57:02 <_adeht> class-of 23:57:10 <_adeht> or rather, type-of 23:58:26 _adeht: type-of works perfect. thanks!