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jkasdlkjbsdf [n=user@atlasdesktop.res.utk.edu] has joined #lisp 01:56:55 -!- jkasdlkjbsdf [n=user@atlasdesktop.res.utk.edu] has left #lisp 02:00:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:09:04 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:00 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:18:22 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:18:35 -!- mr_ank_ [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:49 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 02:19:16 sbt [n=sbt@rrcs-208-125-96-78.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:58 why does my function (defun fun (my-list) (push 'stuff my-list)) not modify a variable set by (setf test '(sample)) in the repl. In other words. (fun test) doesn't modify test. Meanwhile, if I do (push 'stuff test) in the repl, it does modify. Why is this? 02:23:15 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:44 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:31:33 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:12 sbt: push is not a function. Lisp functions have the same semantics wrt modifying variables as Java, C#, Python, if you know one of them.. really anything but C++. That is MY-LIST is a different varaible than TEST, so modifying MY-LIST (note: not what MY-LIST points to, MY-LIST itself) doesn't modify TEST. 02:33:10 so how can I change the function to modify test? 02:34:01 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:34:18 don't modify the parameter, modify the globar 02:34:20 global 02:34:37 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:34:37 so (defun fun () (push 'stuff test)) 02:34:39 You can't, while keeping it a function. Macros can do that (push is a macro), but it can be a little tricky to get right with respect to multiple evaluation. Definitely moderately advanced stuff. 02:34:48 sbt: you don't. rather make use of the return value, or store a mutable data structure in TEST 02:34:54 The best thing to do would be to make FUN return a new value. 02:35:00 -!- vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:35:06 -!- abend [n=sasha@sub26-151.member.dsl-only.net] has quit ["Quitting"] 02:37:01 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 02:37:19 hm. I have to admit this confuses me a bit although I think I understand what you're saying. I thought test was just a pointer, and that my-list just referenced the same memory location. 02:37:48 if push was a function, not a macro, would this be the semantics? 02:37:58 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-17-17.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:06 They do, but they're _different_ pointers to the same thing, and push modifies only one of them. 02:38:16 sbt: you can get the behavior you're looking for if you write it as a macro, actually. 02:39:33 ok 02:39:44 thank you for your help 02:40:49 minion: logs 02:40:50 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 02:43:20 sbt: but you probably don't really want to write a macro for that. 02:46:49 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:47:05 yea, i'm trying to stay away from those things until I get some more practice :) 02:47:58 -!- binarycodes_ [n=Arch@59.93.195.248] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:05 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 02:48:10 Well, don't worry too much about staying away from them. But in this case you'll probably be better off wraping your head around why a function can't modify things the way you originally expected it to. 02:48:14 larrytheliquid [n=larrythe@169.157.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:18 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:26 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:49:22 somehow I thought this was allowed. isn't this the meaning of a side-effect? I was imagining that var in (setf var nil) was actually a pointer that was passed to the function 02:49:24 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:50:26 Nope. SETF is another macro which in this case expands to a SETQ which is a special operator. SETQ knows how to modify local variables, such as VAR. 02:50:58 (setq var 10) is equivalent to, say, var = 10 in Java. 02:51:23 gigamonkey: ; 02:51:27 >_> 02:51:33 sykopomp: :-PPP 02:51:38 :3 02:51:40 Sorry, that was Python. ;-) 02:51:57 I see. well that was good to get clarified. thanks 02:52:09 I actually got bitten by the same thing when I was starting off. Confused the heck out of me. 02:52:24 Just for grins: http://l1sp.org/pcl/setq 02:53:04 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:09 sbt: basically, the way I understood it, is that if you pass a 'global' variable as an argument to a function, you won't modify the global within that function by modifying the argument. You need to explicitly address the global from within to alter it. 02:53:10 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:53:15 Hmmm. Not so useful. Though do look at the section "Manipulating the Lexical Environment" 02:53:17 though, setf doesn't have to expand into setq 02:53:34 stassats: that's why I said, "in this case" 02:53:47 (Leaving aside the possibility that VAR was actually a symbol macro.) 02:53:52 gigamonkey: yes, in this case 02:54:00 clhs 5.1.1 02:54:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aa.htm 02:54:19 http://l1sp.org/pcl/setf might be more useful. 02:57:45 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has joined #lisp 02:59:26 -!- larrytheliquid [n=larrythe@169.157.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:00:04 yet again asking for opinions: Rucksack? Elephant? I'm not sure what to use. Looking for something that can potentially handle a ton of instances, yet is relatively easy to deal with. 03:01:03 try them all 03:01:16 good morning 03:01:35 morning. 03:01:49 gonzojive [n=red@DNab423168.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:02:01 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:08:54 alright, then, general question: Rucksack seems to have good garbage collection for its DB, Elephant's not so much. But Elephant only writes slot-changes to disk, while rucksack rewrites the entire object every time. If I'm expecting to possibly have a ton (500k-1mil) of objects, but not create/destroy them very often (just modify them constantly), am I right in assuming something like elephant is a better choice for this situation? Am 03:08:54 I making the wrong assumptions? 03:08:56 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab423168.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 03:10:45 That would probably depend on how much of the object you are changing and whether Rucksack rewrites the whole object every time it changes or if it can batch a few changes to a single object. 03:11:06 it seems like it rewrites the entire object every time there's a change 03:11:11 (according to http://bc.tech.coop/blog/060604.html) 03:11:12 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:11:13 Also if Elephant is only writing slot changes, you may have a harder time dealing with getting rid of old logs. 03:11:25 But is a "change" a single SETF or are there transactions? 03:11:39 there are transactions, I believe. I'm reading docs atm. 03:11:45 (All of this said in total ignorance about both of them other than what you said above.) 03:12:17 Also, if you're worried about performance, there could be big differences in the underlying implementation that could swamp the differences between the two approaches. 03:12:45 this is also true. But in this case, elephant is older, and seems more complete. 03:12:48 Also, are you going to be using threads at all and how do they each deal with that. 03:13:46 well, elephant uses (mainly) BDB as a backend, so it's thread-safe, although rucksack seems to be, as well. 03:14:25 I'm assuming 'parallel transactions' means it's essentially thread-safe? 03:14:49 you'd hope. 03:16:02 papermachine_ [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 03:16:35 Renatobico [i=t7DS@nbru03-1242.dial.bru.embratel.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:16:36 Anyway, if you're going to have lots of concurrent transactions there are ways of implementing logging that can vastly improve total throughput. 03:16:49 -!- papermachine_ [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:53 *sykopomp* doesn't know how to do logging. 03:17:05 elephant probably just inherits whatever DBD does and that's probably one of the smart wasy. 03:17:07 ways. 03:17:35 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:19:19 Oh man. I love not having to code up all this stuff myself... 03:19:46 not to be a library whore or anything, but it's nice to be able to put together a pretty large app without worrying about every single nitty-gritty detail. 03:19:56 slut 03:20:03 ;-) 03:20:04 *sykopomp* likes it dirty 03:20:06 :D 03:20:43 gigamonkey: did I read you mention in some ancient comp.lang.lisp post that you were working on a mud or something? 03:24:29 If I did say it it was so long ago I have no memory of it. 03:24:47 may have gotten it confused, then, disregard that :P 03:27:36 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:29:43 findinglisp [n=user@c-24-6-200-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:36 i'm trying to figure out something and my CL condition-fu is not strong enough. perhaps you guys can help me... 03:30:54 specifically, i'm writing an application that does some direct terminal io in raw mode 03:31:23 unfortunately, if i have a piece of code that generates a condition while in raw mode, i land in the lisp debugger, but the term in still in raw mode 03:32:02 is there a point where i can detect that i'm about to land in the debugger and return the terminal to cooked mode, and then set raw mode back when i leave the debugger? 03:32:11 findinglisp: unwind-protect. 03:32:15 Just guessing, but you probably want to use UNWIND-PROTECT to make sure ... 03:32:15 bah. 03:32:24 no, it doesn't work 03:32:36 because the debugger is called before it unwinds 03:32:37 Actually, no, it wouldn't. 03:32:54 after it exits the debugger, it then resets stuff correctly 03:32:56 You could use *DEBUGGER-HOOK* to do something. 03:32:58 that was my first attempt 03:32:59 findinglisp: if the handler is witing the uwp, then you should switch toc ooked mode in it. 03:33:06 *within 03:33:20 Presumably there is no handler if he's ending up in the debugger. 03:33:32 yea, i actually want to end up in the debugger 03:33:41 I'd use *DEBUGGER-HOOK* then. 03:34:09 i have tried using handler-case and such, and they work to recover from the condition and restore things on the way out, but they then mask the condition and don't land me in the debugger 03:34:26 gigamonkey: is *DEBUGGER-HOOK* standard? 03:34:29 yes. 03:34:34 clhs: *DEBUGGER-HOOK* 03:34:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debugg.htm 03:35:40 okay, i'll check it out. Thanks for the reference 03:35:40 see, i knew you guys would come through ;-) 03:35:40 always! 03:36:08 hmmm, is there a *DEBUGGER-EXIT-HOOK* or something like that? 03:36:49 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.205.12] has joined #lisp 03:36:51 No. *DEBUGGER-HOOK* is set to a function. In the function do your thing, bind *DEBUGGER-HOOK* to NIL, call INVOKE-DEBUGGER, and then undo your thing. 03:36:59 maybe i need to override INVOKE-DEBUGGER 03:37:04 Probabyl the do/undo pair should be via UNWIND-PROTECT. 03:37:09 That's what *DEBUGGER-HOOK* is for. Read the docs. 03:37:26 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:34 Actually, it will be bound to NIL for you. 03:38:02 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 03:39:27 Maybe you could resignal the condition. 03:39:33 gigamonkey: i'm not seeing it. This is just a function called prior to entr to the debugger, right. So I could enter cooked mode in the terminal there. That's fine. But I'd like to enter raw mode again in case i want to invoke a restart or something in the debugger. how would I do that? Again, I'm not worried about cleaning up my own code. Unwind-protect works great for that and it's already working. 03:41:32 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:31 hmmm... maybe if i use handler-bind to grab the condition and then enter cooked mode, call invoke-debugger with the condition, and then raw mode all within the handler 03:42:37 Hmmm. I was thinking you'd call INVOKE-DEBUGGER from within your hook function. But now I can't see how to supress going back into the debugger. 03:43:18 findinglisp: That sounds right. 03:43:32 chilinuxguy [n=chilinux@unaffiliated/chilinuxguy] has joined #lisp 03:44:49 wait, you might be right. it says it rebinds *debugger-hook* to nil right before it calls *debugger-hook*, so it might be that if I call invoke-debugger that i'll end up in the right spot 03:45:07 in any case, looks like there are a couple of options 03:45:18 i'll code them up and see what works best 03:45:21 thanks again 03:46:04 Nah, I think you were mislead the same way I was. The problem is if the *d-h* function returns normally, then the debugger will be re-entered. 03:46:37 I think your HANDLER-BIND approach is the right one. And you can build that into a macro that turns on raw mode and sets up the UNWIND-PROTECT all in one fell swooop. 03:47:59 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:48:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:44 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.205.12] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:48:56 schasi [n=schasi@p54A251C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:10 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 03:52:45 jajcloz_ [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:52:45 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:53:01 -!- a-s [i=root@93.112.81.106] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:53:48 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A251C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:29 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-61-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:18 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:08:24 xrt [n=xrt@adsl-99-175-102-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:39 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.217.131] has joined #lisp 04:11:00 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:12:27 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 04:13:14 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:14 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-18.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:14:44 -!- xrt [n=xrt@adsl-99-175-102-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:20:15 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-44-82.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:20:45 -!- chilinuxguy [n=chilinux@unaffiliated/chilinuxguy] has quit [] 04:22:39 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:48 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 04:27:20 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-69-208-92-118.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:38 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 04:28:30 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-69-209-123-41.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:40 -!- sbt [n=sbt@rrcs-208-125-96-78.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:29:31 avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has joined #lisp 04:29:58 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 04:34:33 borism [n=boris@195-50-201-108-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 04:34:33 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:39:05 abcl almost orks entirely w/o ever compiling it seems.. is this correct V-ille? 04:40:14 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:22 i kinda ask before but finnaly tested it on working code.. and indeed it works ;P 04:40:58 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-110-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:45:07 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-69-202-149-234.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:49:53 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.45.123] has joined #lisp 04:51:08 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 04:51:50 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:33 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-69-202-149-234.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:54:09 How do i write to the old *standard-output* from within a CLIM application? 04:55:10 -!- findinglisp [n=user@c-24-6-200-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:01:00 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 05:01:09 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:02:07 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 05:06:24 -!- cracki_ is now known as cracki 05:10:35 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 05:11:19 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.45.123] has quit [] 05:14:37 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 05:17:36 emacs-dwim: IIRC *standard-output* is bound by run-fram-top-level, so you have to catch it before you start your application. 05:17:52 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 05:17:54 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:19:38 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:45 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:22:46 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:23:24 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:32 JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-90-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:55 -!- kleppari [n=spa@mobile-out.siminn.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:36 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:49:17 Anyone know how to compile ECL from CVS? 05:50:05 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 05:52:18 ./configure && make ? 05:53:33 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.217.131] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:54:50 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:55:53 joshe: no, that bails out with "The variable *DEBUG* is unbound.". 05:56:33 what OS and hardware platform? 05:56:51 Linux, x86_64 05:57:31 I just built ecl there just fine a couple hours ago 05:57:46 hmmmm 05:57:51 that was from git though, which hasn't synced to cvs for a couple weeks 05:58:19 it's most likely something in your environment that's causing the build to fail though 05:58:45 which is not cought by ./configure... 05:59:31 any hints on what I could look for? 05:59:32 -!- Renatobico [i=t7DS@nbru03-1242.dial.bru.embratel.net.br] has quit ["The 7 Deadly Sins: reserve your copy today!   [www.t7ds.com.br]"] 05:59:40 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-44-82.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 06:00:39 beats me, that sounds like a weird error 06:00:50 maybe try a fresh cvs checkout 06:05:06 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [] 06:06:55 gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:07:23 dmiles_afk: abcl has both an interpreter and a compiler, you don't need to separately compile lisp code to JVM bytecode 06:07:54 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:08:08 athos [n=philipp@p54B8750E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:40 V-ille, I spoke too soon in a way.. the coerce or some autoload got in the way .. after i turn some invokeinterfaces to invokevirtuals 06:10:28 hmm, sounds like you're in the wonderful world of jvm.lisp :) 06:10:32 erm after i constants.invokevirtual on interfaces ;P 06:10:52 yeah, and runtime-class.lisp 06:11:16 actually iirc maybe runtime-class isnt really used anymore? 06:11:35 I have no idea about that, sorry 06:12:03 avida_ [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:54 nyobe [n=nyobe@66-215-92-212.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:11 my lisp uses alot of isVector() isString() where ABCL uses vectorp() stringp() .. trying to decide to delegate (make them call each otehrs) or rename mine.. the bytecode has definate expectations too easy t break 06:13:24 -!- bryteise [n=bryteise@c-76-115-234-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:14:02 bryteise [n=bryteise@c-76-115-234-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:50 the bytecode in some instances optimizes with define-predicate 06:17:23 -!- bryteise [n=bryteise@c-76-115-234-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:04 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 06:19:44 bryteise [n=bryteise@c-76-115-234-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:42 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-126-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 06:26:42 -!- dtulig [n=dtulig@cpe-70-112-7-197.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:27:50 me-so-stupid_ [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 06:27:56 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:29:55 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-14-237.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:30:10 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-14-237.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:31:21 _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-195-217.nomad.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 06:32:58 emacs-dwim: did that work? 06:35:42 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:37:13 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:38:32 <_zenon_> good mornin' lispers 06:38:37 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:38:54 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:39:23 <_zenon_> (or (good-p morning) T) ;; Now you are forced to have a good morning no matter what. 06:41:39 hello _zenon_ 06:42:23 <_zenon_> beach, having a good morning? 06:42:44 _zenon_: what i'd like to see is the contents of your MORNING variable... 06:43:43 <_zenon_> jdz, pretty simple. '(coffee laptop) 06:43:50 <_zenon_> I'm a simple man 06:44:02 <_zenon_> as long as the coffee is there, it's mostly a good morning 06:44:10 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["bye"] 06:44:12 yes, well, don't mix them together. 06:44:57 <_zenon_> should be list there of course, 06:45:10 _zenon_: and good-p is set up with (setf (fdefinition 'good-p) (constantly t))? 06:46:17 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:36 <_zenon_> jdz, not _always_ a good morning. 06:47:04 _zenon_: sure, can't complain. 06:47:10 _zenon_: well, the value of morning is a constant... 06:47:34 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 06:49:06 <_zenon_> jdz, I was thinking of it more like a day-specific list, or maybe I totally missed the joke :/ 06:51:31 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-27-220.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:51:51 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:56 _zenon_: it was not really a joke. just that instead of just MORNING you'd have either *MORNING* or would have a different predicate altogether. like (good-morning-p (get-universal-time)) 06:51:56 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-27-220.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:51:57 -!- DanielRM [n=daniel@cpc1-grim8-0-0-cust625.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["leaving"] 06:52:08 then we could talk about the implementation of the predicate :) 06:54:06 <_zenon_> jdz, but that is just a naming convention; or have I missunderstood that? 06:55:44 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 06:55:48 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:49 and more, it should be like (good-morning-p (get-universal-time) (get-me-the-neural-link-to-the-person-in-front-of-screen) (get-geospatial-data (machine-instance)) 06:56:05 <_zenon_> ookay, that's a bit more complex than I thought ;) 06:56:19 <_zenon_> I would settle with the coffee, can't start a day without coffee 06:57:22 _zenon_: well, my point about using a special (dynamic) variable instead of ordinary variable is that the value of "morning" changes dynamically 06:57:43 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-4-243.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:57:50 but anyway, it's always more complicaded than we'd like it to be :) 06:57:56 <_zenon_> true. ;) 06:58:34 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has left #lisp 07:00:14 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:31 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:45 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:04:48 kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 07:05:23 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:22 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-17-17.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:11:44 is there any reason why a function (defun foo () (or (if *foo* t nil) t)) is not compiled to (constantly t)? 07:11:51 (in sbcl) 07:12:41 well except the one that SBCL is not SSC yet 07:15:04 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.183.190] has joined #lisp 07:15:18 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:44 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 07:17:17 jdz: ssc? 07:17:44 Sufficiently Smart Compiler 07:19:08 ah. thanks. 07:19:50 <_zenon_> Hrm. I don't get the PCL example of &key to work 07:20:05 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:07 _zenon_: which example? 07:20:27 <_zenon_> Xach, a tiny foo fun, with key params 07:20:28 <_zenon_> (defun abba (&key a b c) (a b c) (list a b c)) 07:20:59 _zenon_: is it written in the book like that? 07:21:02 <_zenon_> Chap 3, page 29 07:21:29 there is no such exapmle 07:21:41 <_zenon_> awww 07:21:46 <_zenon_> my eyes deceive me 07:21:55 <_zenon_> (a b c) should not be there 07:22:07 your fingers and brain helped 07:22:29 <_zenon_> Xach, yeah. well thanks ;) 07:29:21 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit [] 07:30:17 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 07:31:46 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 07:33:44 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 07:33:46 morning 07:38:03 <_zenon_> ok, I must go to a lecture now. Cu 07:38:10 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-195-217.nomad.chalmers.se] has quit [""Lecture""] 07:40:01 flight16 [n=flight16@134.159.154.1] has joined #lisp 07:46:33 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:23 -!- flight16 [n=flight16@134.159.154.1] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:50:12 hello lispers 07:50:48 Hey kiuma. What's new and exciting? 07:51:52 nearly finished with CLAW demo, full dojoo ajax, but litigating with clsql. (I miss hibernate) 07:55:01 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 07:55:38 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 07:57:30 what about you splittist ? 07:57:45 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-206-104-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 07:58:05 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 07:58:07 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 07:59:32 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:59:48 same old, same old. lispless dayjob keeping me busy. I am but a parasite on the lifeglow of #lisp 08:00:46 that's a good thing. 08:00:48 I think I'll give up trying to adjust clsql to support joins and I'll implement my own orm using clsql for its support to multiple database connections 08:01:03 I do support stuff during daytime and do fun stuff in the mornings. :) 08:01:38 splittist, my pay job is java , but I code lisp during long deploy times 08:02:53 well, now it's js, that is a bit more funny 08:04:59 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-201-108-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:05:52 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:06:10 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 08:06:27 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:09:49 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:10:27 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:14:33 marcoecc [n=me@dial81-135-227-200.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:09 -!- xjrn_ is now known as xjrn 08:17:19 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 08:17:24 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:01 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:22:11 Edmond [n=foo@217.5.184.13] has joined #lisp 08:22:18 -!- Edmond [n=foo@217.5.184.13] has left #lisp 08:23:27 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:38 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:24:57 turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:19 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:06 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-102-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:01 good morning 08:29:28 indeed 08:33:07 -!- jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [] 08:33:41 -!- JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-90-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:11 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-102-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [] 08:34:21 someone's translated the Limp manual to Japanese! 08:38:15 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-51-153.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:38:15 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:39:00 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B85CA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:20 yeoh [n=chatzill@242.18.50.60.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 08:45:00 sugoi 08:45:27 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-35-246.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:46:05 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 08:47:56 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:51:58 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8750E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52:16 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:53:00 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:54:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-162-174.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:54:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 08:54:58 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:55:27 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-51-153.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 08:55:30 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-35-246.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:58:39 oudeis [n=oudeis@87.68.187.154] has joined #lisp 09:00:31 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:45 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 09:02:43 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 09:04:19 hi, anybody who has used lapack compiled by f2cl? is that one stable and efficient? 09:08:27 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:08:28 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:09:20 -!- avida_ [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:09:47 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:14:54 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:15:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:22 emilbarton [n=eb@47.86.82-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:37 -!- emilbarton [n=eb@47.86.82-79.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 09:16:49 emilbarton [n=eb@47.86.82-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:11 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:13 hi, i'd like to make a function that would quote its arguments, how can i do? 09:18:44 that quotes its arguments, or quotes the values of its arguments? 09:20:19 for example base(2A2,10,12) will return the value of 2A2 in base 10, but I don't want to have to 21 quote 2A2 09:20:48 ok, the answer is you can't, and you don't want to either 09:21:07 why? 09:21:07 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 09:21:41 I mean there are lisp functions that quote their arguments 09:21:52 why couldn't i do the same? 09:22:27 you don't want to because changing the rules of evaluation is something that is used for source code transforms, not for functions 09:22:33 plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 09:22:46 <_8david> base(2A2,10,12) doesn't look like lisp syntax to me anyway 09:23:00 ok I'm a begginer 09:23:14 but you can catch the idea 09:23:31 emilbarton: yes, and I told you that you don't actually want to do what you think you want to do 09:24:09 that's the most mysterious part of your answer: how can you know what I want to do? 09:24:19 <_8david> Xof might catch the idea, but that's because he has remote telepathy skills. 09:24:28 long experience of observing beginners 09:24:39 or what _8david said :) 09:25:44 can you give me the address of an example of function for base conversion? 09:25:52 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@87.68.187.154] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:26:00 common lisp can already do base conversion 09:26:24 for instance, #12r2A2 reads as the number whose base-12 representation is 2A2 09:26:46 alternatively, (parse-integer "2A2" :radix 12) 09:28:16 till what base can you do this conversion? 09:28:24 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:28:57 emilbarton: till what base do you expect it to work? 09:29:12 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:36 I don't know, maxima goes up to base 35 09:30:18 emilbarton: if you think about it, you should see why there is a limit. and i doubt the number is 35. 09:31:07 36? 09:31:08 <_8david> is your quoting issue actually a maxima syntax question then, not a lisp syntax question? 09:31:40 (write 3881078659412702453 :base 36) 09:31:58 not exactly: maxima does not offer a base conversion function 09:32:04 mehrheit [n=user@84.240.55.160] has joined #lisp 09:32:08 but can be scripted in lisp 09:32:37 splittist: nice one 09:32:52 -!- yeoh [n=chatzill@242.18.50.60.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.2/2008091620]"] 09:33:36 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-51-153.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:33:55 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:33:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:34:13 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-51-153.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 09:35:19 many thanks, bye! 09:35:56 emilbarton: we scared you away by trying to make you think? 09:37:31 Making NIL a special variable instead of a constant... pity that brucio retired 09:37:55 maybe, in fact i'm boiling since there's more than an hour that I try to stringify arguments in lisp 09:38:00 tcr: yeah, sounds like a great idea! 09:38:19 emilbarton: why would you want to do that? 09:39:02 avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has joined #lisp 09:39:05 emilbarton: string is the most useless data type if the contents of the string has any meaning 09:39:06 i'm making a prog that has lots of base conversion and permutations of digits 09:39:28 for representation of number 09:39:53 emilbarton: why don't you use an array of numbers? 09:40:49 1. it seems more complicated to me than converting strings to lists 09:41:02 aumontabe [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:41:30 no 2 09:42:18 why is there any mention of lists at all? 09:42:27 arrays have declared sizes, it's not convenient when you change the base 09:42:50 Xof: for permutations 09:43:08 -!- turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:43:16 converting strings to lists is trivial: (coerce string 'list) 09:43:35 that wasn't a question 09:44:56 I'm afraid that you haven't yet been clear enough about any question you have asked to do more than tell you that you are unclear 09:45:04 I think emilbarton talks about lists of digits 09:45:48 in fact I make lists of pairs (digit,indice) 09:46:27 i somehow think that creating a single (random?) permutation is easier for an array than a list. 09:46:31 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.183.190] has quit [] 09:47:07 array have indices starting at 0 and lists at 1 no? 09:47:13 emilbarton: no 09:47:24 it's the case in maxima 09:47:41 emilbarton: doesn't make any difference, anyway 09:48:03 emilbarton: you either need to learn some lisp, properly, or talk to people who are very familiar with maxima 09:48:06 just add +/-1 in appropriate places 09:48:28 yes but you have to choose and since lisp have indices starting at 1... 09:49:14 emilbarton: it's maxima that has indices starting at 1, not lisp. 09:49:22 what's the difference anyway between lists and arrays? 09:49:55 emilbarton: cosmetic ones. 09:50:00 In-memory layout, which affects what they're both good at. 09:51:20 emilbarton: anyway, it's not the list vs. array that i wanted to direct your attention to, but arrays of numbers vs. arrays of characters (since you apparently are working with numbers, not characters...) 09:51:37 phil [n=phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:51:39 and strings are just that  arrays of characters 09:51:45 trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-231-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:08 H4ns [n=hans@72-255-31-140.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:16 it's not exactly the case, i like the idea of being able to work on both, even if for the time being it's only numbers jdz 09:52:44 ok, i digress. 09:53:01 What's this in, jdz? 09:53:07 That strings are just arrays of characters? 09:53:39 phil: yes, in common lisp. 09:55:02 Of course, yes. My reading comprehensions are off today. 09:55:12 I thought you meant "lists of characters". 09:55:23 Like in Haskell, or supposedly in Arc. 09:56:07 phil: string is a _list_ of characters (or is it numbers?) in Haskell, no? 09:56:20 In Haskell, they are lists of characters. 09:56:29 And characters are distinct from numbers. 09:57:04 It's nice that it allows you to use all of the list based operations on strings, and you can write recursive functions on them easily as well. 09:57:12 It's just there's a performance penalty. 09:57:16 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:24 thank you again for the answers, have a good day! 09:57:27 <_8david> IMHO, it's a pity that strings are arrays of characters in CL. (But lists would be even worse.) 09:57:38 -!- emilbarton [n=eb@47.86.82-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:57:51 phil, there's also ByteStrings, which cure most of the performance penalty. 09:57:55 More specifically, isn't a string a simple vector? 09:58:12 Ah okay, papermachine. Thanks. I'm still learning Haskell. 09:59:51 Ah no, just vectors, it seems. 09:59:59 -!- qsun_ [n=qsun@d58-106-209-188.bla3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:01:04 phil: what is juts vectors? 10:01:05 _8david: What should it be instead? Indexed streams? 10:01:16 -!- jk [n=jochem@jkossen.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:01:35 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 10:01:40 <_8david> I'd prefer immutable _sequences_ of characters, with O(1) access to the character pointed to by an iterator, but possibly O(n) for naive ELT uses. That's good enough for rich vocabular of efficient string manipulation functions on top of it. 10:02:38 _8david: you can use keywords for that. 10:02:55 jdz: Vectors (1-d arrays) as opposed to simple-vectors. 10:03:14 kmkaplan: ? 10:03:37 phil: there is a difference between the definition of a vector and 1-d array in common lisp. 10:03:48 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit ["Untill I come back."] 10:03:55 Then symbol-name of a keyword is an immutable sequence of character with O(1) access to individual characters. 10:04:02 jdz: I don't think there is. I'm just checking the hyperspec. 10:04:10 <_8david> H4ns: you took the words right out of my mouth there :-) 10:04:49 The glossary entry for vector just says "a one-dimensional array" 10:04:50 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:13 phil: yes, but 1-d array does not imply vector 10:05:23 um? 10:05:37 (yes it does) 10:05:47 damn, i'm speaking nonsense. 10:06:41 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B7F7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:07:00 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 10:07:14 i thought i had a point about vectors and simple-vectors... 10:07:46 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:05 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 10:09:57 jk [n=jochem@jkossen.nl] has joined #lisp 10:10:30 antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1242510676.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 10:21:06 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:54 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:46 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:28:03 Note to self: In (if (predicate foo) t nil) the conditional doesn't really add anything... 10:28:48 depends on what predicate returns :) 10:29:13 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:29:31 I'm at the make it work stage. The make the compiler sufficiently smart comes later (: 10:30:28 tcr: it really removes information. 10:32:59 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:33:00 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:33:06 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:34:40 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:34:52 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:34:54 splittist_ [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 10:35:06 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:35:07 -!- splittist_ is now known as splittist 10:35:13 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:35:15 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:36:02 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:38:15 jajcloz_ [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:15 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:41 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:39:42 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:40:13 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:41:45 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 10:42:15 -!- phil [n=phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:43:55 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 10:46:38 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-114-28.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 10:49:42 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:50:53 -!- marcoecc [n=me@dial81-135-227-200.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit ["Quitting"] 10:51:19 marcoecc [n=me@dial81-135-227-200.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 10:54:00 ths [n=ths@p549AD9DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:39 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-20-178.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:55:58 Is there a way that make sbcl to auto-compile saved file and run that? Currently I manually evaluate and compile edited files and it takes time. 10:56:02 mikesch_ [n=axel@tmo-123-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:15 C-c C-k in slime? 10:57:12 <_8david> "just use cusp" 10:57:42 Xof: C-c C-k is very close. Thanks. Is there a way to run lisp like interpreter though? 10:57:47 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f50c0.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:57:57 I don't really know what that means, tomoyuki28jp 10:58:12 H4ns1 [n=hans@72-255-3-91.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:35 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 10:59:23 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:59:41 Xof: For example, when we run php on apache, php interpreter read the saved file and compile it every time. In lisp case, I think we don't have to compile it all the time, but I thought a interpreter can detect if anything is modified, and if so, just compile it and run that automatically. 11:00:48 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 11:02:12 tomoyuki28jp: html-template does that 11:05:12 Xach: I might been saying wrong things, but for example, what about when I create web-server in lisp? I even want sbcl to work as a interpreter for the web-server too. If the source code of the web server is modified, I want sbcl to just auto-compile it and run that. 11:05:44 tomoyuki28jp: you can write a program that does that. html-template has an example you can follow. 11:06:03 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:06:06 tomoyuki28jp: there is nothing built-in to CL that does that, but fortunately you can write it yourself. 11:06:27 Xach: I see. Thanks for the info! 11:07:10 tomoyuki28jp: i don't think it's a good idea. 11:07:31 Xach: Could you tell me why you feel so? 11:08:54 I am thinking that the easiest way to make it is add slime-compile-and-load-file to the save-hook or something in lisp-mode. 11:09:55 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:10:09 -!- froog____ is now known as froog 11:12:13 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-114-28.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:09 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-31-140.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:15:10 tomoyuki28jp: it is relatively easy to run into situations where your incremental compilation can fail for the currently executing image if you use the mop. you also need to make sure that your compilation and loading is thread safe. i like to do code upgrades manually in order to be able to fix any problems that might arise. 11:16:30 H4ns1: yea, I do understand what you mean. 11:17:23 -!- grc [n=user@217.33.170.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:28 user___ [n=user@p54925E94.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:37 grc [n=user@217.33.170.226] has joined #lisp 11:18:07 -!- mikesch_ [n=axel@tmo-123-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:27 woa, after a bit of litigation, I finally was able to make clsql with joins 11:18:56 but, it seems nobody is using clsql anymore :( 11:19:08 *user___* says hello to everyone and thinks that if there seems to be no DO-ARRAY in vanilla CL, he would use loop? 11:19:18 I heard postmodern was all the rage. 11:19:40 user___: yes. Some might say iterate, but you can ignore them (; 11:19:41 user___: affirmative. or iterate. or series. 11:19:44 *dlowe* really likes postmodern. 11:19:52 I've choosen clsql for it's cross-db capabilities 11:19:58 dlowe, 11:20:09 sorry, splittist 11:20:20 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 11:20:22 Heh. I don't believe in cross-db capabilities. 11:20:32 kiuma: I understand. 11:21:07 dlowe, hibernate is cross-db and works perfectly 11:21:08 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:21:31 kiuma: it is supported by dozens of paid programmers 11:21:59 kiuma: when trying to be a one man show, you should also try to be realistic in what you achive 11:21:59 H4ns1, do you mean postmodern ? 11:22:23 kiuma: i mean hibernate. comparing hibernate and clsql (or anything in cl) is silly. 11:24:23 kiuma: database operations are only identical for the most trivial tasks, so you end up having to rewrite things anyway to go to a different db 11:24:30 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:41 H4ns1, yes sure, but I'd like to port some of my cutomoers to lisp, and I see that clsql is hardly comparable to hibernate, even if a good starting point to create an orm since it is cross db connection 11:24:52 kiuma: unless you use a heavily abstracted interface layer, like ORM, which I also don't believe in 11:25:20 kiuma: i'm not sure if i'd be convinced by a mock version of java 2 ee written in lisp 11:25:32 kiuma: but maybe your customers are different. 11:26:13 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 11:26:44 kiuma: i think the value of lisp can be the iterative development cycle that it supports. if you get into the "java can do this, so can i" dance, you'll end up reimplementing what java does nicely and do less of what your customer really needs. 11:26:46 H4ns1, why do you think the the port would be a mock, the power of CL may be of great help to write an ORM, 11:27:31 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 11:27:50 kiuma: as dlowe, i do not believe in orms at all. 11:28:28 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-20-178.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:50 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit [] 11:29:54 ddk50 [n=ddk50@p1218-ipbf4803marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:30:41 *H4ns1* feels himself being slowly dragged away from object orientation in general, too. 11:30:48 There is also to say that CL handles list (.i.e query results) better then java so I also don't see all this need for a ORM in a CL environment 11:31:22 H4ns1, with CLOS Ive just been able to create a great piece of software 11:31:55 buggy a a alpha, but it works great 11:32:06 s/a a/as a/ 11:32:07 H4ns1: OO in general, or general OO ? 11:32:18 kiuma: which software? 11:32:28 splittist: what's the difference? 11:32:33 the one you said you'll never use 11:32:37 Xach 11:32:43 luis [n=luis@bl5-53-20.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:33:05 kiuma: i thought that was a framework... 11:33:10 Xach: I would parse the former as moving away from all uses of OO, whereas the latter is moving away from always using OO. 11:33:11 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 11:33:55 splittist: oo in general. it is just that not all data nicely fits into objects with identity. even more so, it seems as if those domains in which your data fits into objects with identity are not that predominant. 11:34:21 Xach, and the demo is nearly a software, transparent ajax, customers and users management (with clsql), components made, etc. 11:34:24 splittist: there are things that you can model well with object orientation. 11:34:37 kiuma: show us one great application of your framework 11:35:40 kiuma: so far and as far as we can interpret from what you say here, we can only conclude that you're rewriting java 2 ee in cl, which might be a nice exercise but does not universally qualify as having created a great piece of software 11:35:51 H4ns1, hehe if you want I can put a screen shot online, and even commit what I'm finishing 11:35:52 s/we/i/ 11:36:16 kiuma: what would a screen shot show? rounded corners? :) 11:36:46 kiuma: i'm not saying that rounded corners don't help in being successful 11:36:47 LOL, just look 11:37:05 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:37:30 mentioning that something is like J2EE would scare users away (me at least) 11:37:43 jdz: maybe not java users 11:37:57 J2EE makes me cry 11:37:59 jdz: but it is very hard to please hard core java users with anything but java 11:38:25 kiuma: if you can convert some die hard java users with your creation, more power to you! 11:39:01 then i say that getting hard core java users to use lisp is impossible 11:39:02 *H4ns1* notes that clojure is very nice, but rather underdocumented 11:39:07 I hope, I've also have some contacts @ redhat italy, but this will be harder 11:39:30 customers screenshots ready 11:39:38 1 second 11:40:09 jdz: i'm all with you. they'll mess around with cl, try to imitate what they know already in mock cl versions and then eventually return because it is way easier to do things this way in java. 11:40:54 jdz, I'm a hard hard core java developer 11:41:18 kiuma: yeah. this is year one of your lisp experience 11:41:32 correct 11:43:37 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 11:44:33 H4ns, screenshots: http://www.wingstech.it/claw/customers.png http://www.wingstech.it/claw/editcustomer.png 11:44:58 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:45:03 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:27 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 11:45:34 there is also vlidation, protection, and other things I can't show in a screenshot of course 11:46:01 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:05 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:46:16 kiuma: looks like a demo. 11:46:49 so ? 11:48:00 kiuma: it would impress me if you could say "i have written this application for a customer in 3 weeks alone and he paid me as if i had 10 developers working on it" 11:48:40 kiuma: i'm certainly aware of the fact that one can write software that generates html in lisp. i've done that, too. it is more fun than in most other languages. 11:49:39 kiuma: sorry. i'm being sarcastic. i'll buy you beer if we ever meet. 11:49:59 H4ns: your aged lisper bitterness is showing 11:50:37 dlowe: yeah, i know. i'd not reduce it to lisp, though. computers are just unbearably bad these days. 11:50:54 H4ns, LOL, it's fast to write components and html pages, more that anything I know, and I'll migrate an old delphi application for my 'direct customers' that handles medical structures 11:51:03 kiuma: do it. 11:51:35 Let me stabilize the framework/server a bit :) 11:52:03 the demo is the starting point for the migration of course ;p 11:52:20 H4ns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d85p7JZXNy8 11:53:15 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 11:55:41 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:35 dlowe: "my tv doesn't crash when i boot it" - the clip shows its age :) 11:58:42 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 11:59:54 very nice! time to get to work, work on this beautiful airline reservation system. it is lisp, so it cannot suck! 12:01:51 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:01:58 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:02:08 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:14 poor old delphi... 12:02:26 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 12:02:45 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:03:35 rsynnott, poor old borland :) 12:04:32 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:05:45 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 12:07:28 dkcl [i=d97d49e3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-664f596ee0563613] has joined #lisp 12:08:28 -!- dkcl [i=d97d49e3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-664f596ee0563613] has quit [Client Quit] 12:11:47 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:44 ia_ [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:16:33 -!- ia_ [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 12:16:42 silenius [n=jl@yath1870.zar.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:19 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:54 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:26 emilbarton [n=eb@47.86.82-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:46 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:22:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:23:59 jdz sorry to insist but if i do (setq p (quote(2A2))); then (setq q (string(first p))); on then command line i get what i want. It's difficult for me to understand why i couldn't get the same with a function. 12:25:11 emilbarton: what is it that you want your function to do? 12:25:13 emilbarton: i'm not sure i quite agree that what you want is what i think you should want. 12:25:39 spiaggia: stringify 2A2 12:25:59 emilbarton: what is the value of p? 12:26:15 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:26:17 (|2A2|) 12:26:42 emilbarton: that's not a string 12:26:55 emilbarton: do you get what you expect in a clean environment? 12:27:10 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-94.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:24 hey: the result is "2A2" and that's what I want! 12:27:48 <_3b> QUOTE is not a function 12:27:50 my environment is virgin 12:27:51 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 12:27:54 emilbarton: but (|2A2|) and "2A2" are not the same. 12:28:15 then then (setq q (string(first p))) 12:29:06 emilbarton: your code does this: (string '2a2) 12:29:15 exactly 12:29:41 emilbarton: you can do that in a function as well (defun my-fun (symbol) (string symbol)) 12:29:44 <_8david> spiaggia: the string thing is a red herring, I think. If you followed the scrollback, he actually means #12r2A2, not "2A2" 12:29:45 string is a function. what is your question? 12:29:46 what i want is really simple, maybe i could get it with ev() 12:30:03 Morning folks! 12:30:05 no no i'm not talking about base anymore 12:30:13 hello persi 12:30:32 emilbarton: why do you use '2a2 instead of "2A2"? 12:30:40 just i want to pass an argument as string without putting the quotes 12:31:03 a funny thing to want 12:31:22 I dont use '2a2 when saying (setq p (quote(2A2))) 12:31:23 emilbarton: if you do that, then 2A2 is treated as a symbol. When the evaluator sees an unquoted symbol, it treats it as a variable and tries to get its value. 12:31:33 emilbarton: you do 12:31:50 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:55 emilbarton: (quote (2A2)) means the same as '(2A2) 12:31:55 emilbarton: (quote (2a2)) is the same as saying '(2a2) 12:32:00 heh 12:32:10 quite similar :) 12:32:20 sorry, maybe it was already mentioned, but what about writing a macro instead? 12:32:35 i'm sure there is a way to make a function transform 2A2 into '2A2 then 12:32:45 emilbarton: there is 12:32:56 trebor_home: that would mean digging even bigger hole and possibility to never get out of it 12:33:03 (defun transform (symbol) (list 'quote symbol)) 12:33:18 emilbarton: the problem is that you cannot call this function with the unquoted symbol. 12:33:25 <_3b> you still have to quote 2a2 when you pass it to that function though 12:33:32 no use 12:33:49 emilbarton: because before the function is even called, the evaluator is going to apply the rule for evaluating function calls, which is to evaluate the arguments first. 12:34:08 maybe trebor_home 's got the trick 12:34:11 emilbarton: do you know any other programming langauge, like C? 12:34:28 yes a little spiaggia 12:34:38 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-3-91.client.stsn.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:35:05 emilbarton: the same way you can't write a C function f that given int i = 10 ; f(i); returns the string "i", you can't do it in Lisp. 12:35:10 emilbarton: (defparameter 2a2 "2A2"). problem solved. 12:35:39 <_8david> I'm still certain that, if emilbarton was programming in Common Lisp, the answer would be (setf *read-base* 12.). 12:35:45 emilbarton: the evaluation rule for functions is the same in Lisp and C. Before the function is applied, the arguments are evaluated. 12:36:45 i can be more explicit: i have functions that return numbers and function that return strings, I'd like to write functions that don't care about the question is it a number or a string 12:37:10 emilbarton: use PHP or Perl 12:37:14 or TCL 12:37:17 yes~ 12:37:25 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-66.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:37:35 yes i know 12:37:46 use TCL 12:38:01 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:38:03 but i wish to use lisp 12:38:18 in tcl you can use WISH, too ;) 12:38:49 "they" designed lisp to be immune to the sloppy programming practices of future programming languages 12:39:31 but "they" also say that one can program Fortran in any programming language 12:39:35 what happens if i do (defun transform (symbol) (list 'quote symbol)) 12:40:01 can i undefine it at the end of my function call? 12:40:06 *schme* reads scrollback. 12:40:09 undefine what? 12:40:20 no nothing 12:40:22 emilbarton: You can't get yer functions to behave like SETQ, no. :) 12:40:56 ok so no way, sorry to disturb ! 12:41:16 emilbarton: You could write a macro though. 12:41:16 *trebor_home* searches for do-what-i-mean ... 12:41:32 methods? 12:41:46 one can't funcall macros 12:42:09 well, with the semantics similar to funcialling functions 12:42:12 Oh we need funcall? 12:42:22 I just thought we wanted to avoid evaluation :) 12:42:36 (defun almost-setq (foo value) (set foo value)) 12:43:19 well shower time. 12:43:36 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:44:18 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 12:44:27 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 12:47:11 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:50:17 joshe: Thanks, re-getting ecl cvs did the trick. 12:51:26 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-100-13.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:39 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:51:48 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 12:52:12 damn, the guy who did the lispjobs blog moved on to be a poet instead 12:54:22 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:56:44 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:01:31 is there any lispy syntax for XSL around? 13:01:36 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:51 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-18.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 13:02:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:02:39 mega1: how so? 13:02:50 Xach: http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2008/10/01/last-post-for-now/ 13:02:58 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:09 <_8david> mathrick: xuriella implements XSLT in a two step process. First XSLT is parsed and translated into a sexp representation, then the latter is compiled into closures. 13:03:24 <_8david> So you could use that internal sexp representation directly. 13:03:30 <_8david> (But honestly, I wouldn't recommend it.) 13:03:34 doesn't standard say that (defconstant nil nil) is valid? it says NIL is a constant variable, and it's EQL to the previous value 13:03:41 mega1: brilliant, i very welcome your sbcl patch! :) 13:04:52 -!- aumontabe is now known as abeaumont 13:05:51 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 13:06:28 <_8david> mathrick: http://repo.or.cz/w/xuriella.git?a=blob;f=SYNTAX;hb=HEAD has an overview of the syntax (written before implementation, so probably a little incomplete and out-of-date) 13:07:04 mega1: cute 13:08:08 Xach: the "double plus sad" tag is more fitting 13:08:38 i can understand the sentiment 13:08:48 i think the jobs are there to list, if someone was energetic and motivated to dig them out 13:12:17 deafmacro [n=user@61.12.19.50] has joined #lisp 13:13:03 mikesch_ [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:14:36 Xach: I have someone in house doing that but she's very reluctant to take over :-) 13:15:51 mega1: oh? it could be a source of fame and fortune! 13:15:53 or at least fame! 13:16:00 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [] 13:17:08 fame => fortune, it 's the web[1,2].0 way! 13:17:42 It's beyond my powers to arrange, apparently. 13:18:00 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 13:18:01 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.201.60] has joined #lisp 13:18:39 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit [Client Quit] 13:20:35 -!- deafmacro [n=user@61.12.19.50] has left #lisp 13:21:02 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:29:36 dkcl [n=dan@18.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:30:54 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 13:31:57 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-100-13.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:15 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:33:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:34:24 -!- antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1242510676.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 13:37:01 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:38:00 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-126-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [] 13:39:59 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:51 brandelune [n=JC@pl182.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:43:48 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 13:47:24 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-66.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 13:47:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:47:51 _8david: oh, I meant more the other way around, sort of what parenscript for is for JS 13:48:04 but thanks for the tip 13:49:56 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 13:50:26 _8david: ooh, I see 13:50:50 well, I still imagined more of a "generate XSLT out of lispy description" thing 13:51:32 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:46 kami- [n=user@p4FD38D30.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:29 hello 14:01:41 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C590.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 antgreen [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:56 -!- nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:02:56 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:03:09 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:22 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:05:02 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.201.60] has left #lisp 14:06:49 borism [n=boris@195-50-205-86-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:08:03 nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:56 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 14:09:01 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:10 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:10:31 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:11 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-206-104-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:07 razor0 [n=razor@unaffiliated/razor0] has joined #lisp 14:16:04 I am looking for a tutorial, article, and/or book on functional programming design. Not on any specific language, but i am looking on a document that will explain functional programming thought to someone who has not done it 14:17:15 razor0: this isn't a great place to ask. maybe try a channel for a language with a strong emphasis on functional programming (#haskell?) 14:17:26 lisp is a functional programming language, no? 14:17:54 not especially. 14:18:03 really? 14:18:05 it supports many paradigms, and i don't think functional style is dominant. 14:18:13 just used where helpful. 14:18:41 razor0: that's my impression, having used lisp for several years. ymmv. other languages emphasize functional programming much more heavily. 14:19:34 sbt [i=80fd9c63@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5c9588bac896cf15] has joined #lisp 14:19:45 good to know 14:19:53 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 14:23:45 good lisp code often uses a somewhat functional style, but is certainly not limited to that style 14:26:26 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 14:28:49 -!- mikesch_ [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:34:08 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B85CA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:36:51 you're not even guaranteed tail recursion optimisation 14:37:55 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:52 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:44:43 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:44:44 isn't it easier to use memoizing for speed-optimizing? 14:44:47 -!- robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:13 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 14:46:26 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f50c0.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:47:00 'morning 14:47:26 hello salex 14:50:30 beach: thanks (from 1:00am) 14:51:08 emacs-dwim: no problem :) 14:51:21 emacs-dwim: so did it work? 14:51:36 [and good afternoon everyone] 14:51:44 hey beach 14:51:54 Hey salex. What's up? 14:52:51 buried in work a matlab hackery :( 14:53:04 (but obviously still have time to procrastinate) 14:53:05 sorry to hear that! 14:53:07 how 'bout you? 14:53:11 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:53:27 Not happy about the fall. 14:53:45 the term? or the actual fall? 14:53:46 Plus, some of the university services are creating problems for me. 14:53:52 the season. 14:53:55 gotcha 14:54:05 uni.'s makeing trouble from me too 14:54:09 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:24 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:25 salex: I think they imagine it's in their job description. 14:54:52 we have some real talent for it here. i was shocked after waterloo 14:55:47 One has to live with it I guess, but it sort of takes the initiative away for some time when one is hit by one of their tricks. 14:55:48 beach: nope 14:55:57 emacs-dwim: oh? Why not? 14:56:34 salex: on the positive side, my colleague is inviting Tim Moore for a guest lecture, either about CLIM or about the MOP for the last-year masters students. I hope he accepts. 14:56:41 trebor_home: depends, "for i from 1 to 100" type constructs yield themselves poorly to memoisation 14:56:55 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 14:57:22 emacs-dwim: like (defvar *old-standard-output*) (let ((*old-standard-output* *standard-output*)) (run-frame-top-level ...)) 14:57:23 beach: because i hadn't tried it yet! -- it works now, many thanks. 14:57:30 ah, OK. Good luck! 14:57:56 beach: that would be great 14:58:21 salex: yeah, and I am pounding them with messages about productivity in software development in my new course. 14:59:30 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:00:19 it's a large (9 ECTS credits), so I hope to have time to slip in some messages about meta programming, embedded languages, etc. 15:00:26 well good luck with that! i hope they agree 15:00:28 s/)/) course. 15:00:52 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:10 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:28 salex: I think as usual, the success rate is going to be around 15%, but that's already 4 people, which I consider good. 15:01:29 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:40 i've been frustrated in trying to get the department behind a more intro course here (our students tend to be hopeless programmers coming in) 15:02:08 there is none at the moment? 15:02:26 not as such, just tagged onto various courses 15:02:44 i wanted to set up something more formal with that at the center 15:03:55 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:59 huh, lispjobs blog has shut down.... 15:04:07 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:44 is there a faq to error/warning messages of sbcl? something like: warning/error xyz often means ....? (a little more than http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Compiler-Errors.html#Compiler-Errors) 15:05:01 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:46 trebor_home: they generally mean what they say. do you have a particular one you find confusing? 15:06:25 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:07:28 after finding the error in my code, i forgot the error/warning. but the one yesterday about odd-key-parameters 15:07:36 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-111-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:45 was confusing to me. 15:08:03 (the real error was that one normal parameter was missing) 15:08:32 yep, then it thinks that another of the normal parameters is part of the key list 15:10:02 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:10:32 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 15:10:33 turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:46 -!- FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:11:17 maybe someone has written down his experiences, so that i do not need to show my errors in public, too often ;) 15:11:26 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-18.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:11:34 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:11:49 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:07 hello, can you generally save-lisp-and-die with sbcl on linux, then copy the file to windows, and then reopen with sbcl on windows? 15:12:33 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-111-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:12:38 stated you run the same version of sbcl 15:12:52 no 15:12:53 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:01 you can't even do this with different sbcl builds on linux 15:13:01 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 15:13:02 afaik s-l-a-d makes an executable binary. 15:13:18 trebor_home: no, but it can 15:13:56 ah, right, i only use it for this purpose ;) 15:14:13 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:14:35 kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@84.14.121.138] has joined #lisp 15:14:37 ok, thanks very much 15:15:16 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 15:16:47 -!- razor0 [n=razor@unaffiliated/razor0] has left #lisp 15:17:00 -!- gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:17:21 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:32 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:19:33 -!- emilbarton [n=eb@47.86.82-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:20:13 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go"] 15:21:04 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:06 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2D904.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:24:44 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:24:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:19 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 15:26:20 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:30 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:27:52 almuric [n=almuric@202.92.40.8] has joined #lisp 15:27:58 I'd like to write bits for library X that are only compiled and loaded when some other optional ASDF system Y is available. I've seen things like trying to load system Y in the .asd file for system X, and upon success, adding something to *FEATURES* and using conditional-read expressions to include relevant files in X's system definition. 15:28:08 I hope I'm not mangling terminology. Is that idiomatic? Is that the right way? 15:29:00 Piranha__, sounds like you want asdf-system-connections 15:29:03 Piranha__: asdf-system-connections is an add-on meant to do something like that 15:29:21 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 15:29:29 Aha. Thank god. 15:29:49 thank gary w. king! 15:30:01 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:30:26 Two letters off, then. 15:30:28 yeah planet mention :) 15:31:34 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["gwkware? who'da thunk?"] 15:31:44 you wont ever use lisp for any practical application. 15:31:56 apart from booting 15:32:16 `you' ? 15:32:24 `practical' ? 15:32:25 *dcrawford* sitting at company that pays me from software made in CL 15:32:37 that's practical enough for me 15:32:38 -!- silenius [n=jl@yath1870.zar.cronon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:32:40 'for'? 15:32:44 `lisp'? 15:32:51 'application'? 15:32:56 `ever'? 15:32:56 `almuric' ? 15:32:57 well thats over analysing :) very impractical way to start 15:33:20 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 15:33:26 i was trying to figure out if your statment was confused, or jsut stupid 15:33:26 that's what those software engineering apes tell 15:33:27 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has been kicked from #lisp 15:33:47 best kick message in a while 15:33:52 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F4CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:54 heh 15:34:04 `kick' ? 15:34:05 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E992.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:14 *almuric* well, no, but you are a loser for sure, no question, unless you would like to apologise 15:34:37 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-048-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:39 ->*almuric* `loser'? 15:34:59 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 15:36:18 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:37:44 *Xach* wonders what almuric hoped to achieve by starting a conversation like that 15:38:21 questions like this make prolog become suicidal 15:38:48 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:40:32 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:40:52 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:48 is sbcl cvs working for anyone else? 15:43:09 anonymous cvs just updated ok for me. 15:43:21 oh! today's sbcl day! 15:43:32 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26793.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:21 yes :-). Developer cvs is not working, exiting with some ssh error message 15:44:38 but, coincidentally, I have just "upgrade" to a new Ubuntu version 15:44:47 so, I'm trying to work out who to blame 15:44:57 I /think/ sourceforge but I'm not sure 15:45:14 sf mailed yesterday about a cvs outage 15:45:41 I know, "for no more than 8 hours" 15:45:46 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 15:46:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:48:19 almuric [n=almuric@202.92.40.8] has joined #lisp 15:48:25 -!- almuric [n=almuric@202.92.40.8] has left #lisp 15:48:36 Also check the Site Status forum of Sourceforge. 15:49:29 you know? I have 15:49:40 hey Xof! 15:49:55 evening 15:50:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:50:18 seems everyone I know is moving to your neck of the woods (well Bristol, but relative distances) 15:50:23 it's weird 15:53:16 looks like I have to start caring about the status of sbcl on OS X again.... 15:53:33 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-18.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 15:54:54 lambdatronic [n=user@ip094102.uvm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:55:16 -!- lambdatronic [n=user@ip094102.uvm.edu] has left #lisp 15:56:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:58:18 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:01:41 rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 16:02:08 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 16:04:14 bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:30 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:10:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:11:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:11:58 -!- user___ [n=user@p54925E94.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:12:04 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.19] has joined #lisp 16:12:44 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.19] has left #lisp 16:13:06 trashbird1240 pasted "release function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67728 16:13:53 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 16:14:16 that seems a bit random 16:14:32 yeah, it happens 16:14:41 that's why there's a "wrong channel" button 16:14:59 ah, right you are 16:15:24 umis [n=umis@82.193.124.116.ipnet.kiev.ua] has joined #lisp 16:15:25 if I was smart, I'd make it so that anyone who pastes to the wrong channel gets a big slap on their next paste (if they still have the cookie set) 16:15:32 but, I'm not smart 16:16:11 or, in a case like this, check that the pseud is actually in channel before notifying? 16:16:16 <_3b> might be nice to move the button though, i always almost hit that or the spam one when i want to annotate :p 16:16:26 (obviously that's not always the case) 16:16:44 trashbird1240 pasted "gsl function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67729 16:16:48 aiee 16:17:15 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 stable pre-release (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:18:14 salex: I see plenty of people not put their IRC nick into the name field, even though they are in the channel 16:18:31 yeah, so they'd always get a complaint. That's probably a pita 16:19:17 -!- bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:28 if we knew which channel he wanted we could tell him why it's not showing up :) 16:19:28 bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:34 <_3b> also people use it to respond to logs when they aren't here 16:19:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:55 _3b: yes, i didn't mean filter based on it, just a verify 16:19:56 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:02 dcrawford: he's on freenode and I've already informed him 16:20:06 <_3b> ah, that sounds reasonable 16:20:08 but it's probably more trouble than it's worth 16:20:10 salex: oh, that's smart 16:20:27 if people typically don't fill in their pseud, i mean 16:20:29 but still... 16:20:52 <_3b> it would be nicer if they did, so don't see any reason to worry about the people who don't :) 16:20:55 -!- bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:02 lispm [n=joswig@e177149130.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:22 stalker_ [n=caitt3am@uyulala.karlin.mff.cuni.cz] has joined #lisp 16:22:39 `alexsuraci [i=a86610b3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-235f69b8e6a745ca] has joined #lisp 16:23:38 -!- marcoecc [n=me@dial81-135-227-200.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:43 a quick browse of the ongoing finance news makes me wonder if all my friends bailing out to go to Brisol (as above) are being pretty smart ;) 16:25:27 *Bristol 16:25:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 16:27:57 not noticeably 16:28:02 the UK is falling apart 16:28:36 makes sense; i guess it's too interconnected 16:30:32 I have an EOF error while building CLG, check-paren in emacs doesn't report any inconsistencies on the file in question. any other way to debug this? 16:31:21 blitz_: does it break in a lisp debugger? 16:31:53 matimago: do you mean, whether it enters the debugger? yes, it does 16:32:09 Then can you display the stream on which the EOF occurs? 16:33:16 end of file on # 16:33:21 I'll post the backtrace... mom... 16:34:17 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.192.62] has joined #lisp 16:34:28 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:35:07 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35:38 http://paste.lisp.org/display/67733 16:35:45 seems to be a slime bug?! 16:35:46 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 16:36:48 Is this really an UTF-8 file? 16:37:03 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:37:04 antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:10 looks quite ASCII-ish to me 16:37:14 no fancy characters 16:37:21 What is the last byte? 16:38:04 #x0a 16:39:50 could it be that skip top-level forms has problems with reader macros? 16:39:57 Yep, perhaps you should check SWANK-BACKEND::SKIP-TOPLEVEL-FORMS. 16:40:10 Do you have any special reader macro? 16:40:42 clg uses #?(pkg-config foo) for conditional evaluation 16:41:10 Well, it's relatively well formed, it seems. 16:41:53 adeht: I sent a patch for sbcl's w-p-i issue a few days ago 16:42:19 tcr: yes, I noticed that a minute later and sent an "ignore this" message 16:43:35 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.132.45] has joined #lisp 16:43:46 matimago: building outside slime seems to work :-/ 16:44:06 It happens sometimes... 16:45:13 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:32 matimago: do you know some workaround? I can't even build the examples in slime, which is quite annoying... 16:46:06 I don't use slime in general. 16:46:26 what do you use? 16:46:32 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has quit [] 16:46:37 Perhaps you could compile it outside of slime, and load it all compiled? 16:46:42 blitz_: i suspect encoding 16:46:48 I just use inferior-lisp wich a few custom commands. 16:46:53 (I think the problem is CALL-WITH-SANE-IO-SYNTAX which clears the reader environment from custom reader macros...) 16:47:20 matimago: too low level for me :) slime is great 16:48:10 blitz_: what coding system is it using, ooc? 16:48:19 (swank, i mean) 16:48:24 UTF-8 16:48:36 on linux? 16:48:43 yeah 16:48:59 utf-8 or utf-8-unix ? 16:49:05 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:30 utf-8-unix 16:49:33 has anyone here tried using cl-prevalence? http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-prevalence/ It looks like a nicer way to handle a massive number of regularly-changing objects than a persistent database solution. 16:49:35 odd 16:49:47 salex: it's because of the reader macros 16:50:02 -!- luis [n=luis@bl5-53-20.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:50:05 salex: I just saw that slime has *readtable-alist*, maybe that helps... 16:50:45 kjbrock [n=brock@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:08 sykopomp: bknr datastore uses ideas from that, iirc 16:52:37 yeah, I've been told of that one, as well. 16:52:48 but I don't know much about bknr (how people feel about it) 16:53:09 H4ns is one of the guys behind bknr and he is a Fine Top Hacker 16:53:12 so far, I have 4 choices, and I don't know which one to pick: rucksack, elephant, cl-prevalence, bknr 16:53:57 If it were me, I think I would go with the bknr one. 16:54:26 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:45 -!- mehrheit [n=user@84.240.55.160] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:54:47 Hm, alright, reading up on bknr again. bknr's logging system would be usable even if the application isn't an http server, right? 16:55:27 don't know, sorry. 16:55:42 i haven't tried it, only seen the presentation and had beer with H4ns 16:55:52 alright. Thank you 16:55:58 maybe if i have beer with sven van c10e i might like cl-prevalence instead 16:55:59 H4ns: ping. 16:56:06 (oh, also if i used exactly the same lisp setup as sven) 16:56:28 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:56:39 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:56:54 hehe. That's true, bknr is mostly an sbcl thing, so I guess it's more fitting for my platform. 16:57:21 disregarding the slime problems, CLG seems to work perfectly! nice :) 16:57:25 i don't know much about all of bknr, but the data store part seems nice. 16:57:58 bknr an sbcl thing? 16:58:18 yeah. Logging certainly seems like a better idea than a database-based approach. I was hoping I'd find something that could keep everything in-memory and limit writes. 16:58:19 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:32 *drewc* notes that the only bknr app he hosts is CMUCL 16:58:50 sykopomp: that's what cl-prevalence does too 16:59:11 Xach: yes, but rucksack and elephant are DB-based 16:59:25 I found out about the log-based ones a little while ago 16:59:34 sykopomp: I can recommend bknr datastore if you're looking for an in-memory db. 16:59:42 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 16:59:58 drewc: oh, yes. I'm not even remotely worried about running out of memory 17:00:12 the kind of data I'm storing will probably rarely, if ever, pass 100-200mb 17:00:25 sykopomp: then go for it! :) 17:00:29 and it's much more important to be able to access it quickly than to save memory 17:00:31 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:00:37 reading the bknr tutorial, then. Thanks 17:02:03 -!- `alexsuraci [i=a86610b3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-235f69b8e6a745ca] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:02:49 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 17:04:53 sykopomp: i'll answer questions if you have any. 17:05:20 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-61-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:13 H4ns: Just want to double-check whether you think it's a good idea to use bknr's datastore for a non-web-server app. I'm reading the docs now, though (tutorial, actually) 17:06:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 17:06:48 sykopomp: certainly, there is nothing in the store that makes it web specific. 17:07:15 sykopomp: also, bknr is not sbcl specific. i'm using it on cmucl, clozure cl and sbcl. 17:07:38 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:38 H4ns: oh, yes, but it's nice to know that there's a lot of testing going specifically into sbcl 17:08:35 guess bknr is it, then. I'll start chucking it at my code this weekend :D 17:08:45 sykopomp: lastly, i would advise against using threads in a naive fashion. the store does not guarantee isolation between threads, so accessing data while it is being changed is quite possible. that is not specific to bknr, yet one might expect a database system to provide isolation, which we don't 17:09:07 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:09:18 hm. Do you suggest locks, then, or what? 17:10:03 (I don't use a lot of threads currently, so I don't think it'll be an issue, but it's good to know that) 17:10:24 schasi [n=schasi@p54A251C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:53 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A251C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:53 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:39 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.45.123] has joined #lisp 17:15:39 i suggest that you just avoid threads if you can. if you can't, try to access your persistent data only from one thread and pass messages around. 17:15:59 (i'm not suggesting that i have a good message passing library or anything, but someone else might) 17:16:17 great, thanks :D 17:22:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:07 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has joined #lisp 17:24:32 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:14 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:14 zpiro [n=oks@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 17:28:08 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:28:27 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:28:50 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 17:31:07 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 17:31:40 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:34:54 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AD9DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:36:01 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b1dd83abae21b1d0] has joined #lisp 17:36:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@130.254.103.123] has joined #lisp 17:38:05 wait what, scheme disallows LET bindings without initial values? 17:38:14 *mathrick* is puzzled 17:41:40 -!- lesceil [n=lesceil@gateway.penguincomputing.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:42:07 mathrick: Yup. That's scheme for ya :) 17:42:19 lesceil [n=lesceil@gateway.penguincomputing.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:45 schme: I'd be careful if I were you, you're only one letter away 17:42:55 bye, I go home to eat pizza!!!! 17:42:58 :) 17:43:17 mathrick: You have no idea how many times I have been accused of being a schemer :) 17:43:21 *H4ns* only has mock pizza :( 17:43:22 hehe 17:43:33 *mathrick* ate pizza yesterday 17:43:50 hehe, listen a onemanband, do it yourself :) 17:44:02 schme: still, makes me wonder if their NIL is somehow broken 17:44:19 well, I know it is in that it isn't eq to #f, but it should still work fine as "no value" 17:44:29 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.132.45] has left #lisp 17:44:32 cu tomorrow 17:44:38 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:45:18 mathrick: is there NIL in scheme at all? 17:45:24 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:45:29 I think so 17:45:31 *mathrick* checks 17:47:07 uh, it doesn't seem to have nil 17:47:10 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8a05.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:17 and moreover, () isn't self-quoting 17:47:20 that is silly 17:47:48 that's not silly, that's scheme, and it's not CL 17:47:52 well, serves them right for trying to "fix" NIL 17:48:00 stassats: which amounts to being silly :] 17:48:21 let us speak no more of scheme and its silliness 17:48:25 okay 17:48:33 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.19] has joined #lisp 17:50:21 Naww. Just when I had a scheme question :) 17:51:08 alexsei_ [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 17:51:13 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:27 loving CLOS. 17:55:31 Scheme has NIL. 17:55:36 It's just not at all special. 17:56:21 scheme's NIL does not mean the same thing as CL's 17:57:10 Right. 17:59:46 So, I'm writing a web spider in Lisp, and I have foolish aspirations of it being a long-term search engine. 18:00:19 It's really depressing that the volume of the data I'll be accumulating will be literally never-ending. It makes decisions about the data structures very hard. 18:00:45 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:51 ths [n=ths@X74a8.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:02 mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-070-202.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:13 Piranha__: think about how to solve the problem so that you can survive a year, then redesign. 18:05:29 Piranha__: you'll not get it right in the first iteration anyway 18:06:23 Well, apparently my feel for computational complexity is off. I was worrying too much about my ever-growing binary heaps. But, say at a million entries, I'd have to spend 19.9 operations to do stuff. At a billion, that only goes up to 29.8. 18:06:47 And yeah, as much as I might worry about performance now, I know I'll have to design if I'll want to scale at all. 18:07:20 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.132.45] has joined #lisp 18:08:02 Why doesn't SBCL compile much faster the second time than it does the first time, kind of like how running make on most programs runs very fast if it's already been run and very little has changed. 18:08:27 can you ever get things right? I feel like I don't get them right even after the 2nd, sometimes the 3rd, iteration (and it's still not right) ;_; 18:08:39 scottj_: sbcl is not make 18:08:47 Er, redesign if I want to scale. 18:09:31 pjb, but make.sh essentially is 18:09:34 scottj_: sbcl does not keep compilation state across compilation units - it is not incremental in the sense of other compilers that do what you'd call incremental compilation. 18:09:46 ah, sbcl recompilation. ignore me. 18:09:50 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:18 *rvirding* says good evening everyone 18:10:20 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 18:12:40 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:17 scottj_: make.sh doesn't seem like gnu make, it has only similiar name 18:14:26 scottj_: dependency tracking for a compiler cross-compiling itself is kind of hard 18:15:07 doubly so when we're talking of a lisp system, where by compilation we really mean creating a lisp image 18:16:41 see slam.sh for a way for a quick but unreliable rebuild (works fine if you're just making small changes into the library, less well for complex stuff) 18:19:04 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 18:19:49 ah, jsnell 18:19:56 does sbcl developer cvs work for you? 18:19:59 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.132.45] has left #lisp 18:21:00 a moment, I need to figure out whether I have my sf.net ssh keys somewhere 18:24:16 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:26:02 doesn't work from my laptop, where I'm pretty sure it was working a few months ago 18:26:26 but the output from ssh -vvv makes it look like a local problem 18:26:50 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:27:23 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbb3e2.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:10 a-s [i=root@93.112.89.26] has joined #lisp 18:30:44 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:00 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:31:29 tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:31:48 ugh. forgot the name of the method-missing function. 18:32:08 -!- a-s [i=root@93.112.89.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:32:09 clhs no-applicable-method 18:32:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_app.htm 18:32:40 thank you, sellout 18:33:12 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:22 hrm, no usage examples. 18:34:35 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 18:35:11 bougyman: I was just this minute thinking I should write a blog post about how people used to method-missing or AUTOLOAD or whatever might take advantage of no-applicable-method. 18:35:21 replor__ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:35:51 rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-4-243.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:23 replor___ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:38:19 comity! 18:40:53 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 18:41:31 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:54 -!- replor__ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:43:46 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:44:21 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8a05.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:33 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:19 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-90237566550cb688] has joined #lisp 18:46:09 does common lisp have an "exclusive or" function? 18:46:32 clhs xor 18:46:32 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for xor. 18:46:40 clhs bit-xor 18:46:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_bt_and.htm 18:47:07 clhs logxor 18:47:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm 18:47:11 wolfboy22, also try something like this: (apropos 'xor :cl) 18:47:17 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-69-202-149-234.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 18:47:18 wolfboy22: one of those should help.... 18:48:05 sellout: googling i keep finding fud about how CLOS cannot implement smalltalk/ruby style method-missing. 18:48:06 there's also a XOR macro in alexandria 18:48:16 sellout: it's getting frustrating not to find usage of it. 18:48:49 bougyman: It's not really FUD ... no-applicable-method is much different, but you can hack some method-missing use cases with a bit of work. 18:49:22 I used to say it was because of multiple dispatch, but I think a Clojure-style non-type-restricted dispatch might make it easy. 18:49:27 bougyman: why do you want to use it so desperately? 18:49:28 novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 18:49:49 michaelw: porting something from ruby that uses method-missing for a big chunk of the work. 18:50:06 salex: the first one only works with bit arrays, the second only with integers 18:50:07 it's that or define about 27 methods that essentially do the same thing. 18:50:13 bougyman: that's what macros are for. 18:50:28 I just want something so that (xor t nil) will return t 18:50:30 Xach: the macro still makes me run it that many times. 18:50:42 bougyman: you can make a macro for that too. 18:50:46 Xach: or prefix it iwth a namespace. 18:50:47 wolfboy22: erm, I should have said `may help' rather than `should help' (you didn't specify) 18:51:10 (mpd-command "status") (mpd-command "play") instead of (mpd-play) (mpd-status) 18:51:15 salex: ok 18:51:25 do you know something that will do (xor t nil) ? 18:51:25 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 18:51:34 sellout: I assume you could MOP around it? 18:51:35 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:44 bougyman: (define-mpd-commands "status" "play") => job finished 18:51:45 bougyman: implementation strategies often don't carry over into other languages. 18:51:49 wolfboy22, have you looked at alexandria? 18:51:54 if you limit yourself to Smalltalk-like message passing, then having a doesNotUnderstand-like facility shouldn't be hard ;) 18:51:57 what is alexandria, and how do I use it? 18:52:14 bougyman: no-applicable-method still requires that the gf exists, so even if you don't have to define the method, you do have to enumerate the cases (EG, you can't just have any unknown function call turn into an XML tag ... unless you specify the allowed set of names) 18:52:17 minion: tell wolfboy22 about alexandria 18:52:17 wolfboy22: have a look at alexandria: Shhh -- it's a secret! http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 18:52:27 salex: Yeah, definitely could. 18:52:45 bougyman: omg design patternz. U is using tha strategiez 18:52:57 sykopomp: Knock it off. 18:53:04 Xach: sorry. Bitter. 18:53:32 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 18:53:41 It's hard to pull off ironic stupidity without looking actually stupid to most observers. 18:53:41 sellout: so there really is no way to intercept a call to a function that does not exist and take corrective action? 18:53:57 bougyman: I once wrote a silly interface for amarok that uses dcop 18:54:24 bougyman: http://l1sp.org/cl/cell-error -- but it's not a common technique in the face of other tools. 18:54:29 adeht: this is about learning lisp and CLOS, not about the library i'm porting, per se. 18:54:57 adeht: it's a library i built in two other languages, so I have implemented it both OO (message passing) and functional (ocaml). 18:55:11 lisp is proving to be the most terse version of it, wrt LOC. 18:55:40 bougyman: another good idea is to get inspired by reading other code, e.g., http://stassats.dyndns.org/git/gitweb.cgi?p=mpd.git 18:55:52 Gee. Alexandria is worth using for the hash table stuff alone. 18:55:53 michaelw: i've looked at that one. 18:56:03 How have I missed this till now. 18:56:11 blackwolf pasted "multicasting in sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67740 18:56:17 michaelw: but not during this exercise. 18:56:33 michaelw: a hint from Nietzsche -- don't read while writing. 18:56:48 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:56:53 yay, my answer to "When to use 'quote in Lisp" at StackOverflow was accepted. More reputation for me! 18:57:00 bougyman: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67739 18:57:13 mogunus: what's so nice about alexandria's hash table vs cl's builtin? 18:57:26 *blackwolf* got multicast recv working ... couldn't find a decent example anywhere ... 18:57:59 sykopomp: I always write myself a keys -> list, values -> list, and the maphash equivalents. 18:58:05 adeht: first thing I notice is the use of #', after just re-reading PCL on packages and programming on the large and he said that form won't be used much by programmers it creates a question mark. 18:58:21 sykopomp: also always end up writing an alist to hash table conversion 18:58:40 mogunus: and I'm guessing alexandria's includes those functions? 18:58:50 sykopomp: so that's 6 functions that alexandria has for me. It'll improve the standardization of my code. Exactly, yeah. 18:58:51 bougyman: wrote this about 2 years ago, one of my first lisp programs 18:59:16 adeht: it looks proper 18:59:23 mogunus: does it use the standard hash table, or do you mean that it provides extra functions for handling them? 18:59:25 bougyman: what does pcl say about #'? 18:59:31 sykopomp: extra functions. 18:59:35 ah, alright 18:59:44 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:59:44 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:59:44 -!- turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:59:44 -!- ddk50 [n=ddk50@p1218-ipbf4803marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:59:44 -!- manveru [n=manveru@p4158-ipbf1507marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:59:44 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit 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[n=nyobe@66-215-92-212.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has left #lisp 19:00:06 mogunus: I think sykosomatic is going to turn into one of those objects that enjoys pulling in half of cl.net whenever you try to set it up. 19:00:09 (hilarity) 19:00:13 sykopomp: functions that I pretty much always stick in a utils.lisp. 19:00:21 sykopomp: oh, god. enjoy. 19:00:25 hahaha 19:00:30 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 19:01:44 slash__ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:54 -!- slash__ is now known as slash_^ 19:02:20 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-119-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:15 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:05:15 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 19:05:15 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 19:05:15 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:15 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:15 rvirding 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blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:40 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 19:05:43 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig112.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:43 hi 19:05:45 -!- slash_^ is now known as slash_ 19:08:03 asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:05 *rvirding* must go, i'll be back 19:08:10 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 19:10:21 H4ns: it says that's used for uninterned symbols, so that the reader creates a new symbol each time it is encountered. 19:10:47 then it goes on to say: You'll rarely, if ever, write this syntax yourself, but will sometimes see it when you print an s-expression containing symbols returned by the function GENSYM. 19:10:52 bougyman: that is #: - #' is function 19:11:40 bougyman: in package definitions, #: is common and proper style. interned symbols are avoided in package definitions by most people, and many use literal uppercase strings just to confuse allegro users. 19:11:42 ah, '# 19:11:49 no. #' 19:12:33 yeah, i'm typing all wrong. 19:12:42 i meant to say the use of #: 19:13:18 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:38 the effect, in adeht's code, is that the symbols with #: don't get interned, and the symbol is (re)created every time the reader encounters it? 19:14:32 bougyman: no symbol is created. the #: is there in order to prevent creation of a symbol. defpackage sets up a package, and the symbol designators are there to intern symbols into the package created and eventually export them. 19:14:41 bougyman: yes, but defpackage just needs the symbol's name 19:14:56 H4ns: the symbol is created, but not interned. 19:15:25 bougyman: but as the reader does the symbol interning and can't be stopped from doing that, using uninterned symbols in defpackage is common practice so that no stray symbols are created in the package that defpackage read into. 19:15:30 hrm, the PCL says it's created every time the reader encounters it. 19:15:32 adeht: ah, ok. 19:15:41 Notice that symbol names are STRINGS. So you can avoid even creating symbols in DEFPACKAGE forms. Just use strings! 19:15:42 bougyman: right. adeht is correct. 19:15:58 pjb: yep. and put off allegro modern users :) 19:16:15 Down with modern! :-) 19:16:28 I just don't like holding down shift when I type symbol names. 19:16:35 sely_ [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:36 capslock :) 19:16:45 M-x capslock-mode 19:17:11 pjb: Really? Hrmm ... interesting. Also, capitalized strings are harder to read. 19:17:12 But actually, I get my defpackage export lists built automatically from the sources. 19:17:36 sellout: that's true, but it also depend on the font. Some fonts are very nice in upper case. 19:17:39 so what's most common? (until I get keene's, i only have PCL to reference).. i'm currently using (defpackage :some-package (:use :another-package) (:import-from :yet-another-package :a-symbol :b-symbol))) 19:18:14 keene is not about packages 19:18:14 bougyman: #:another-package or "ANOTHER-PACKAGE" ... not :another-package 19:18:15 should that be (defpackage #:some-package (:use #:another-package) (:import-from #:yet-another-package :a-symbol :b-symbol))) 19:18:16 bougyman: it's a matter of style.. some use keywords, some use uninterned symbols, and some use strings 19:18:17 bougyman: that is common among beginners. seasoned programmers change to the "I-HATE-ALLEGRO" or the #:i-tolerate-allegro camp 19:18:18 ? 19:18:28 bougyman: you know my preference ;) 19:18:49 are there side effects (other than the allegro w/strings) in the preference? 19:19:06 bougyman: yes.. keyword symbols stay in the image no matter what 19:19:06 bougyman: fine points that can be discussed here anytime 19:19:32 stassats: i have no idea what keene is about yet, stassats, still waiting on the delivery of it (and amop and PCL v2) 19:19:38 bougyman: for practical purposes, chose one of the two to avoid have loads of stray symbols in your keyword package 19:19:56 bougyman: the title suggests that it is about CLOS 19:19:58 ah, so the keyword package doesn't register it if you don't intern it? 19:20:22 #:foo will not intern foo into any package 19:20:36 "the symbol is created every time it is read" 19:20:37 bougyman: The : in #: is just confusing. It has nothing to do with the keyword package. 19:20:55 aha. 19:21:00 sellout: that's what was throwing me. 19:22:09 how about (export :sym1 :sym2)? 19:22:15 keywords or #: ? 19:22:18 Also #: or "" 19:22:27 danke 19:22:40 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 19:23:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:24:03 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:28 Actually, I thought you mean (:export ...) in the DEFPACKAGE, but if you mean (export ...), then you can also do 'sym1 if you're in the package you're exporting from. 19:25:00 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.125.138.91] has joined #lisp 19:25:10 But you would write (export '(sym1 sym2)) in that case. 19:25:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@130.254.103.123] has joined #lisp 19:25:55 no, i meant (:export), you wer correct. 19:25:58 although the (export form is less common and will make sbcl barf^Wstyle-warn when reading the defpackage 19:27:11 cl-ppcre doesn't appear to build with clbuild because it requires cl-unicode. Why wouldn't that be in the clbuild list? 19:27:13 woohoo, i got through a whole session without a single indenting error. 19:27:13 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:27:46 scottj_: add it yourself 19:28:02 "get-ediware cl-unicode" something like this 19:28:53 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [] 19:29:18 you can also find those who are responsible for the clbuild 19:30:07 stassats: should I add that to the projects file or is there a user one that will survive updates? 19:30:48 scode, there's a reason why it uses source control 19:30:49 scottj_: don't know, i'd add it to the "projects" file 19:31:48 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:32:03 scottj_: cl-ppcre doesn't depend on cl-unicode, but the cl-ppcre-test system does 19:32:33 -!- sely__ [n=rps@24.7.206.73] has quit [No route to host] 19:34:00 Xach, running ./clbuild build cl-ppcre fails if it's not there 19:34:40 Xach: Does cl-ppcre-test use its own .asd? 19:34:45 sellout: I don't know. 19:34:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 19:35:11 I think that's the only way cl-build would notice that system. 19:35:15 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:35:51 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b1dd83abae21b1d0] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:35:56 there's a separate cl-ppcre-unicode.asd system that depends on :cl-unicode 19:36:19 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:37:25 Adamant [n=Adamant@130.254.103.123] has joined #lisp 19:38:13 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2D904.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:38:29 ah 19:38:38 mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has joined #lisp 19:39:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.125.138.91] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:40:35 phil [n=phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:40:57 -!- bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:03 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:41:23 you can say a lot of things about Paul Graham, but one thing is certain, his essays are great food for markov-chain based essay-generators 19:41:24 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:43:59 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:44:19 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:05 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:46:43 Anyone know if it is possible to CLOS EQL specialize on strings? 19:47:00 persi: sure, but that still tests for pointer equality. 19:47:29 pkhuong: i kinda ment in a way that works. ;( 19:47:35 :) 19:48:06 persi: no 19:48:09 use symbols, or dispatch using a hashtable 19:48:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:48:55 as I suspected. Thanks guys. 19:49:14 or use a custom specialiser (and bug Xof about it) 19:49:33 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:38 pkhuong: thought of rolling my own. may just do that. 19:50:24 willbenton [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:51:24 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.125.138.91] has joined #lisp 19:52:39 hm. (let (*pretty-printing*) (print long-list)) still truncates long lines. sorry, i've forgotten how to make sbcl to print into untruncated long lines. could someone give me a hint please (i will write it down and never forget it again - i promise)? 19:52:48 -!- sbt [i=80fd9c63@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5c9588bac896cf15] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:53:21 -!- novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has left #lisp 19:53:43 clhs *print-length* 19:53:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_lev.htm 19:53:50 trebor_home: I don't know about sbcl, but I use the standard *PRINT-RIGHT-MARGIN* and set it to a large value or NIL to get long lines 19:54:20 antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:54 clhs w-s-i-s 19:54:54 WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_std_.htm 19:55:04 thanks a lot, -> trying. 19:55:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:57:27 trebor_home: truncated with "..."? 19:57:51 trebor_home: you should be careful to distinguish between the side effect and the return value of PRINT, too. 19:58:26 Xach is using LispWorks, is that new? 19:58:46 -!- phil [n=phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:16 Xach: i only need a long-line-output in order to look at it (+ sorting, plotting witihin emacs) - i think that *PRINT-RIGHT-MARGIN* is what i need - thanks for answering 19:59:20 lispm: i like to test things in lispworks to avoid gratuitous unportability, but i am not a habitual user. 19:59:36 trebor_home: what about my question? :( 19:59:48 lispm: i am a fan of the hug, also 20:00:21 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@198.49.81.62] has joined #lisp 20:00:43 aha! 20:02:09 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.125.138.91] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:02:48 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:04:25 a-s [i=root@93.112.89.26] has joined #lisp 20:04:59 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 20:05:02 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 20:05:30 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.125.138.91] has joined #lisp 20:06:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:07:04 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.125.138.91] has quit [Client Quit] 20:12:50 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:53 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 20:15:05 rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 20:15:33 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:16:45 gonzojive [n=red@DNab423892.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:17:42 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:18:11 -!- vasa-work [n=None@212.98.167.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:07 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.125.138.91] has joined #lisp 20:19:42 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 20:22:38 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Smile! "] 20:25:05 -!- willbenton is now known as willb 20:25:22 -!- willb is now known as willbenton 20:26:24 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:26:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B7F7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:27:36 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.192.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:56 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 20:28:10 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:42 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 20:29:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:30:03 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbb3e2.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:30:07 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 20:32:00 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:28 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-51-153.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:33:01 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:46 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:35:04 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["brain rebootzzZZzz..."] 20:36:54 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 20:37:28 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 20:39:34 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.125.138.91] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:40:40 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.45.123] has quit [] 20:44:37 hi. anyone with some clim experience around? 20:44:57 vaguely 20:45:58 writing text on an application-pane i want to avoid linebreaks 20:46:07 phil [n=phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:46:17 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-51-153.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:46:20 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:20 timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:29 the application pane has no scrollbars itsself, but is enclosed in (scrolling () ...) macro 20:47:13 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 20:47:20 -!- willbenton is now known as willb 20:47:30 kleppari [n=spa@mobile-out.siminn.is] has joined #lisp 20:47:51 it works in the clouseau inspecter shipped with mcclim but i cant figure out what's different there 20:47:53 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:01 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [] 20:48:33 I believe you want :end-of-line-action :allow in your pane spec 20:48:33 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:49:10 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:49:38 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:06 nope, doesnt fix it 20:50:31 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-070-202.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 20:50:43 is it a problem that i use (format pane "~a " xy) to write the text 20:50:49 ? 20:51:03 I claim it does fix it. 20:52:19 sorry you are right of course 20:52:24 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Smile! "] 20:52:27 i changed it in the wrong pane 20:52:37 but it doesnt completely fix it 20:52:52 it doesn't resize the pane so i can't scroll to view it 20:53:21 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-51-153.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:16 print a new line when you're done printing 20:55:36 resizing the pane is rather expensive, so the stream output waits until the end of the line to do it 20:55:41 -!- ddk50 [n=ddk50@p1218-ipbf4803marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:55:41 (which is still too often, but ..) 20:55:44 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 20:55:46 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone!"] 20:56:08 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:56:17 -!- phil [n=phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:56:55 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:57:24 doesn't change things 20:58:08 odd. 20:58:10 i notice that the horizontal scrollbar just isn't working 20:58:25 if i resize the whole window i can see the output 20:58:39 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 20:58:47 but the scrollbar stays button stays full length 21:00:14 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:10 it doesn't even work with the initial size 21:03:10 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:03:17 are you doing anything unusual, or just calling format on the pane? 21:03:36 aha, i added the :width parameter for the pane and now the scrollbar works for the initial length 21:03:49 some formats, some prints 21:03:56 a formatting-table 21:04:01 nothing fancy 21:05:05 certain things, like the grapher and table formatter, don't update the size of the pane like you'd expect 21:05:05 but when wider text is displayed, the scrollbar doesnt adjust (the pane in fact seems to get resized properly with :end-of-line-action :allow 21:05:19 (but now, I've run out of excuses for why that is) 21:06:10 ;) 21:06:24 removed the formatting table and still the same issue 21:06:39 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab423892.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 21:06:49 it seems the horizontal slider is bound to the initial value of width of the pane 21:07:14 are there any other panes in the layout between them, or is the application pane directly inside the scroller? 21:07:16 and doesnt get the new width when the pane is resized by the output 21:07:27 yes directly 21:07:52 hmm, ISTR having this problem recently (and resized the window and ignored it) 21:08:46 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-119-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:50 demmeln pasted "app-frame" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67751 21:08:51 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 21:09:03 thats my frame definition 21:09:07 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:04 I can't think of a workaround off the top of my head 21:10:28 -!- asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:45 -!- umis [n=umis@82.193.124.116.ipnet.kiev.ua] has quit [] 21:11:08 demmeln annotated #67751 with "workaround" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67751#1 21:11:20 yeah, there's that 21:11:25 you should do the height too 21:11:31 hm ok 21:11:32 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:49 so that works? 21:12:18 i stole that from the inspector. It only defines it for height (though it doesnt seem to have the problem i have. I doesnt even use :end-of-line-action :allow 21:12:47 it shouldn't need it, it does its output differently 21:12:58 seems to do the trick 21:13:06 cool 21:13:14 odd. that implies the stream isn't doing itself, and that code has hardly changed in five years. 21:13:14 so how does inspector do it anyway 21:14:01 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-159.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:14:17 the inspector is mostly nested tables, for one thing 21:14:26 i tried to find out how inspector works by reading the source but didn't quite find out 21:15:27 maybe it's a ACL specific bug... 21:15:36 twice I've refactored that thing to customize it and never managed to check it in before cluttering it up with a bunch of crap 21:16:38 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 21:16:44 i wanted to use it to display objects aswell. I'll get to its roots ;) 21:16:55 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 21:16:58 should i file a bug report or something about the issue i just had? 21:17:12 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has left #lisp 21:17:14 how actively is mcclim developed at the moment? 21:17:17 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:17:33 not very 21:18:55 the recent pattern is that it picks up around december and january, then lays mostly dormant for the rest of the year 21:20:57 ok thank you so much anyway 21:21:04 this makes my day :) 21:21:07 i can go home now 21:21:39 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:01 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:07 avida [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:19 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig112.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:26:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 21:26:16 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@198.49.81.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:53 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:30:06 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-56-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 21:30:41 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:32:35 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:50 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:19 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-205-86-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:19 prxq [n=mommer@X88e8.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:37:30 hi 21:38:52 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:46 go_beep_yourself [n=adfqewtq@208-117-11-160.block5.gvtc.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:30 say, Krystof, you taught computer security, yes? did you do Take-Grant, Bell-LaPadula, and the like? 21:44:58 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- It'll be on slashdot one day..."] 21:46:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:47:58 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:49:20 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:49:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:49:39 -!- vanLiempt is now known as Liempt 21:49:50 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:51:33 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:53:53 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9b5/2008043010]"] 21:54:10 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:42 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:25 1st 22:00:46 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 22:04:28 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 22:04:51 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:06:19 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:07:22 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:08:45 is there a built in macro to test to see if a list contains at least one non-nil value? 22:09:15 why would it be a macro? 22:09:19 clhs some 22:09:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 22:09:37 (some #'identity the-list) 22:10:47 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:11:38 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:26 chandler: thanks 22:13:16 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:14:54 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:16:05 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:19:48 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:05 -!- herbieB is now known as herbieB|Away 22:20:20 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:20:29 rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 22:20:38 -!- herbieB|Away is now known as herbieB 22:21:21 mach [n=mach@unaffiliated/mach] has joined #lisp 22:21:44 _ty_ [n=_ty@c-67-164-105-182.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:58 -!- _ty_ [n=_ty@c-67-164-105-182.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:23:16 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:34 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 22:25:44 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:31:26 What's the defacto documentation, in regard to beginning Lisp (preferrably on win32) - also, what's the defacto compiler used? 22:31:59 PCL is a good book 22:32:05 minion: pcl 22:32:06 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:32:40 mach: what is your level of experience in programming? 22:33:16 I know some C 22:33:23 I haven't written a kernel or a compiler or anything, but I'm able to functionally code in C. 22:33:47 you're in for a wild ride 22:33:56 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 22:34:12 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:31 V-ille: I am? 22:34:32 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:34:51 mach, experience in script languages like perl, python? 22:34:56 mach: well, lisp is in some places quite different than C 22:35:04 some? 22:35:15 there are equivalences too 22:35:15 timor101: No 22:35:18 mach: I'd rather say, you are into learning a few new things that have a rather different philosophy, 22:35:29 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:33 prxq: That's right. 22:35:54 I could read a generalized beginner book, if it's all that different. 22:36:20 With this I'd be able to implement things on other languages, with a broader viewpoint. 22:36:24 -!- go_beep_yourself [n=adfqewtq@208-117-11-160.block5.gvtc.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:37 mach: I'd also recomend to take a look at "a gentle introduction to symbolic computation" by touretzky, and to "ANSI common lisp" by graham. 22:36:54 i second ANSI common lisp 22:37:02 I un-second it 22:37:06 i used that for learning 22:37:07 mach: it's like another planet. Seriously, 22:37:40 I actually do not like the PCL book. 22:37:52 chandler, didnt like it? 22:38:04 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177149130.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:38:04 I unfirst it? 22:38:05 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:38:29 chandler doesn't like it because graham calls his variables 'lst' instead of 'list'. I mean, how could he??? ;) 22:38:38 timor101: I think its utility is limited now that Practical Common Lisp is available. 22:38:45 timor101: It just leaves out a lot of CL 22:38:57 prxq: no, I don't like the way he holds his nose while discussing what are (to me) essential features of the language, like CLOS. 22:39:20 H4ns [n=hans@72-255-90-109.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:21 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has left #lisp 22:39:29 timor101: I learned from ANSI CL as well, but I think PCL fills the niche better now ... Touretsky is still good. 22:39:33 Ah, Paul "I don't need no stinking OOP" Graham, that is. :) 22:39:33 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 22:39:43 hmm, true there are things i found in pcl that werent in ansi common lisp, but id still say its good for starting 22:40:02 he makes a rather nice job of explaining why the rest matters, a point that i don't really like how pcl does it. 22:40:07 Paul "everything stays a list until i give the word" graham 22:40:14 weirdo [i=sthalik@c134-115.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:40:25 prxq: What do you mean by "the rest"? 22:40:53 I actually learned from CLtL2, and still think that's a good choice for those who are inclined to learning by diving in the deep end of the pool. 22:40:56 sellout: right. Without OOP, what is there left in the world? just collapsing financial institutions. 22:41:08 I haven't even read ansi common lisp by graham, I did read on lisp 22:41:15 prxq: I was just asking a question. 22:41:20 oh sorry 22:41:23 clhs paip 22:41:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for paip. 22:41:30 minion: paip? 22:41:30 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 22:41:33 oops 22:41:33 prxq: So you mean "the stuff Graham covers" 22:41:40 sellout: well, err, right. 22:42:12 cltl2 is heavy for people coming straight from c i would think 22:42:18 I do think PCL does a good job with that. In particular, a much better job with the condition system. 22:42:30 and a much better job with loop 22:42:38 yes, it's a much better generall intro 22:42:40 pcl confused me about loop 22:42:52 clhs confused me about loop 22:42:58 for a practical coder with some experience in other language(s) at least 22:43:00 pcl un-confused me about loop 22:43:05 ACL is quirky 22:43:06 paip has a pretty good coverage of the language 22:43:11 paip is better 22:43:13 looking at other code unconfused me about loop 22:43:23 not enough usage in pcl would be my only comment. 22:43:28 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:39 not enough use-cases in lisp in general, is my first impression (16 days in) 22:43:40 and it's interesting in that it both teaches the language and classical ai at the same time 22:44:07 jsimonss, both paip and what? 22:44:14 harrrrrrrrrrr tab!!!! 22:44:19 i meant jsnell 22:44:38 s/both teaches/teaches both/ 22:44:47 ahh ok 22:45:03 mach- [n=mach@212.100.69.12] has joined #lisp 22:46:13 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 22:50:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:51:45 -!- mach [n=mach@unaffiliated/mach] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:52:12 -!- mach- is now known as mach 22:52:48 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:28 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C590.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:57:07 *jrockway* stabs SLIME 22:57:40 so apparently if i write a script like (loop for file in '("foo.lisp" "bar.lisp") do (slime-load-file file)), SLIME doesn't send the commands to the inferior lisp in order 22:57:55 or rather, slime-load-file doesn't block 22:58:05 any ideas for bulk-loading a project? 22:58:44 asdf... 22:58:48 *H4ns* nominates jrockway for the "creative slime user award" 22:58:57 asdf 22:59:09 jrockway: xach has a blog posting that describes how you do it properly 22:59:13 ok 22:59:15 asdf involves telling the inferor lisp where my project is 22:59:21 i guess i could do that 22:59:38 slime-load-system may know! 22:59:43 what's SLIME-LOAD do for you that plain LOAD doesn't? 22:59:46 jrockway: ,l 22:59:53 jrockway: http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 23:00:21 sellout [n=greg@pool-68-160-6-164.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:31 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 23:00:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-68-160-6-164.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:01:15 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:01:17 wow, ,load-system works perfectly 23:01:19 sellout [n=greg@pool-68-160-6-164.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:26 i swear i tried this once and it failed miserably :) 23:06:12 -!- a-s [i=root@93.112.89.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:21 -!- prxq [n=mommer@X88e8.x.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:20 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-159.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:12:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:12:54 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-70-253-169-194.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:17 rme: that was an emacs lisp file, actually 23:14:25 it is fun to accidentally load-file instead of slime-load-file 23:14:39 sometimes it works OK, and then you wonder why slime didn't pick up the changes 23:15:50 asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:09 -!- asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:18:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:19:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:28 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:22:37 gonzojive [n=red@DNab42285b.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:26:36 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 23:27:19 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:50 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab42285b.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 23:31:23 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:51 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:39:08 Aloha 23:41:48 -!- kjbrock [n=brock@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 23:45:01 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:08 gonzojive [n=red@DNab42285b.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:47:45 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab42285b.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 23:48:20 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:54 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:48:58 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:48 gonzojive [n=red@DNab42285b.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:49:58 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [] 23:50:54 -!- liemaj2 [n=e@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:53:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:56 hi rtoym 23:56:45 Xach: hi Xach. 23:57:11 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26793.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 23:59:07 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab42285b.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 23:59:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-165-198.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"]