00:58:41 alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #ccl 01:02:30 -!- gbyers [~gb@c-68-84-152-249.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:05:06 gbyers [~gb@c-68-84-152-249.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #ccl 01:05:17 -!- Quadresce is now known as Quadrescence 03:10:00 -!- alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: alms_] 03:25:51 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #ccl 03:28:35 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:54:35 -!- Quadresce is now known as Quadrescence 06:16:44 jdz [~jdz@89.201.97.48] has joined #ccl 06:30:49 faheem [~faheem@bigipfloater1.duhs.duke.edu] has joined #ccl 06:42:58 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.169.208.90] has joined #ccl 06:49:31 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.169.208.90] has quit [Quit: Bye] 09:49:13 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.161.239.26] has joined #ccl 09:50:47 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.161.239.26] has quit [Client Quit] 11:54:26 alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #ccl 13:40:14 -!- wws is now known as billstclair 13:40:21 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-81-61.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:40:21 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #ccl 13:40:39 -!- billstclair is now known as wws 14:49:58 -!- alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: alms_] 14:52:25 alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #ccl 15:14:07 jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has joined #ccl 16:57:30 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:24:36 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-232-46.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #ccl 17:40:34 sellout [~Adium@ip-64-134-221-135.public.wayport.net] has joined #ccl 18:16:59 -!- jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:00 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ccl 19:28:53 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #ccl 19:35:02 -!- sellout [~Adium@ip-64-134-221-135.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:57:37 gz` [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #ccl 19:58:07 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:22 -!- jdz [~jdz@89.201.97.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:31:16 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-232-46.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:33:23 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-nzyvqheindzmctev] has joined #ccl 21:43:29 so, since ccl users like to have the source code available for debugging, would the following directories from the source code suffice? 21:44:16 compiler, level-0, level1, lib, library, obj-bridge, tools, xdump 21:44:42 not sure about tools, that mostly just asdf 21:45:06 As an open source project, it should include all source code. 21:45:53 gz-: no, it's a separate package, so if the debugger is entered, the user can drop down. this is for a debian package 21:46:03 sorry, i should have explained the context. 21:46:16 i'm packaging ccl for debian 21:46:46 Would you want users to be able to rebuild from that source? If so, you'd need to include tools and lisp-kernel too. 21:46:50 when users encounter a problem eg in slime, the debugger will descend into source code if available 21:46:59 rme: no, that's separate 21:47:04 rme: this is just for debugging 21:47:20 rme: i assume the debugging won't try to access c code for example 21:47:46 What's the harm in including it? 21:47:47 rme: i could just include everything, but some of that stuff eg docs is pretty clearly redundant 21:47:57 gz-: no harm, just space issues 21:48:37 ccl will of course be in the Debian archives with full source, but that will be as a source package. 21:49:11 the stuff i'm referring to will be a "binary" package, i.e. a deb, which will be installed on users machines 21:49:22 OK, if you say so. It seems like source is pretty useless if you can't build anything from it. Why not just tell users to install the source package? 21:49:52 rme: the source package is not designed to be installed, just to be built from 21:50:25 rme: an similar package would be sbcl-source in Debian, which does something similar 21:50:51 just to elaborate, debian has the concept of sources and end user packages, eg debs 21:51:18 so source is built into end user packages, which is then installed. source is typically not installed 21:51:44 in this case, the source is needed for debugging, so that is a special case. but i assume the useful code here is just the *.lisp files 21:52:23 can someone give me a simple program which will drop into the CCL sources so I can test it is working? Thanks. 21:52:24 The full source is definitely part of the end user package for a project like ccl. Debugging (development) of a ccl-based project may include making changes to the ccl sources and rebuilding. 21:52:54 These elaborate packaging policies make my head swim. 21:53:21 gz-: hmm. that would need to be done at the source level. 21:53:25 rme: i'm sory 21:53:26 faheem: Just do M-. on find-if-not or something from emacs/slime. 21:53:27 sorry 21:53:59 objc-bridge/ isn't currently useful for Linux. 21:54:00 Lisp is not like C where you just write an application and use the compiler to process it. A ccl program is an extension of ccl. 21:54:41 rme: can you elaborate? 21:55:02 gz-: true, but some adjustments are necessary to fit into a distribution like Debian 21:55:29 gz-: the binaries can easily be rebuilt from the sources if necessary 21:56:10 gbyers: so i can leave it out? 21:56:12 rme: one doesn't necessarily use ccl for development in a linux distribution 21:56:27 yes 21:56:38 gbyers: thanks. otherwise does it look ok? 21:56:40 faheem: Do you use emacs and slime, or something else to interact with ccl? 21:56:54 rme: yes, emacs and slime 21:58:00 btw, i've got a working package now, but i'll need to find a sponsor 21:58:04 which may not be so easy 21:58:10 rme: a binary distro could ship e.g. maxima built on ccl, and in that case it would make sense to keep the runtime, the default core and the sources in three separate packages 21:58:42 faheem: OK then, type "unless" (or some other lisp symbol name of your choice) in a lisp buffer (or at a repl), move the cursor onto it, and press Alt-period. 21:58:58 The "binary" package should contain tools/asdf.lisp at least; would have to think about what else. 21:59:36 rme: ok. and what would i get then? btw, i'm not set up to test right at the moment, but i can take notes 22:00:09 unless is unbound, so... 22:00:59 ah , lisp macros lisp does not exist. ok 22:01:15 that seems like a simple test, thanks 22:02:33 gbyers: the binary package has the headers thing, tools, and the lisp kernel and heap image, and the manual in the two html formats 22:02:50 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.169.208.90] has joined #ccl 22:02:52 gbyers: based on information from rme, that suffices 22:02:59 ok 22:03:19 gbyers: i ran some tests, and it seemed to work ok 22:04:11 next step is to put it on mentors.debian.net and ask for sponsors 22:04:38 the Debian CL group are the obvious people to ask, but they aren't very active at the moment 22:04:46 so i don't know what will happen 22:05:04 does anyone here use Debian and is willing to test? if so, send me an email at faheem at faheem dot info 22:09:59 rme: thanks for your posts. they were useful references 22:10:07 gbyers: thanks for your posts too. 22:32:54 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-nzyvqheindzmctev] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:04 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.169.208.90] has quit [Quit: Bye] 23:12:23 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #ccl